Looks like the Subaru 2.5 RS may be booted out of STS and into STX - good news for the Honda drivers in STS, but is it a good decision? This is making a pretty big stink on other boards..

From SCCA Fastrack News. August 2002:

"The SEB has reviewed and is presenting for member feedback the STAC's current statement of vision for this category, which is as follows: If STX reaches National status, the vehicle eligibility for STS would be restricted to permit only 2WD normally-aspirated vehicles, and all others (AWD, turbos) would go into STX. The STAC believes that models such as the Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS would remain viable cars for STX."

 

I read about it for the first time over the weekend on SCCAForums.com. Definitely getting a mixed, mostly negative response over there. This really is a blow the 2.5 RS Impreza, b/c they'll really have a tough time competing with the WRXs and ITRs in STX or DS. Even more devastating for the Turbo Beatle & few other cars. I'm not sure what the right answer is, but I've never been comfortable the AWD 2.5 RS cars being "legal" in STS -- giving them a huge advantage over those of us w/ an open diff.

 

While the 2.5 RS certainly is the car to have for a Prosolo, I'm not as conviced about it for a normal solo2. An 89 Civic Si on RE71s beat a score of Avenis shod RSs last year in Topeka. After it's amazing Prosolo launch, it pretty much a non-spectaular car with odd gearing and considerable weight compared to its competition (as much as 600lbs heavier than an old Si).

 

Jason's victory last year surprised a lot of people, including me. It also served as a good reminder that a well-preped car in the hands of a top-notch driver who also happens to be in "the zone" that day, anything can happen.

 

It wasn't a total surprise. I've long maintained that a well-prepped and driven Neon will run with the Subarus, considering the first STS car I ever drove was Ross Atwell's Neon.

The problem with the Subarus is the same problem you see in most of the stock classes -- someone wins in one, so everyone buys one. Because most of the fastest people are in them, to the "average" driver, that means the car is what makes them fast, not the driver's skills. There is also the perception that the drivers in STS are of lower caliber than many classes -- which is not true by a long shot -- and so if someone no one's heard of does well, it's the car, not the driver. Lastly, car preparation in anything but stock class plays a huge role in what is or is not competitive. This comes back to the first issue -- people are buying and prepping the Subarus, and not the Neons or the Civics or whatever. So, you end up with a Subaru-heavy class, even if other cars are just as competitive.

Oh, and I almost forgot..... since when are they classing cars based on ProSolo performance? Someone already mentioned that the AWD launch is mainly a ProSolo thing. Look at the difference between MR2 Turbos at a ProSolo and a National Tour. Carter Thompson is hardly as dominant at the Tours as he is at a ProSolo.... should we look at bumping that car up a notch?

Karen
let's move any body faster than me out of my class

 

Very well put!

I think the 2.5RS kind of belongs in STS, but it is definitely the car to have on paper at least. It has almost the power of a GSR, more torque, 4 tires to put down the power and is a pretty light for an AWD car - I think around 2800 lbs?

The argument with STS drivers not being "up to par" to the other classes is at least in our region very false. The top guys in STS are absolutely flying.

 

Oh, I agree with you. I hope you weren't interpreting my argument as saying STS drivers weren't any good. I'm just saying that is something the anti-Subaru crowd tried to use in defense of removing the Impreza -- that the Impreza is so dominant that "sub-par" drivers are winning.

That is anything but true in my area (Eric Kriemelmeyer, Richard West....) too. Richard was quite dominant in his Legacy GT wagon before the SEB decided that car was too fast for HS halfway through the '99 season.

Karen

 

I'm ok with the comments, unless you'd like to ALLOW a "limited slip" on all other cars in the STS class.. It seems fair enough that a vehicle with a device that "transfers power from the wheels that slip to the wheels that grip" go against other vehicles with similiar characteristics...Unless you'd like to go to a "heads up" format for just the Pro Solos?? That would be kinda cool actually... Especially since the vehicles eligble for the class range from H to E in stock trim..Pax the start based on the stock classing of the vehicle...

Now that I really think about it, this may be a better alternative, then moving the cars out of the class. Heads up starting, based on stock class PAX indexes.. On a typical ProSOlo course that would give a 2-3 tenth advantage on the light, figuring on 2 perfect lights...Could DEFINATELY even the score a bit.. (based on a 2.5RS against HS)

[edit: spelling, what else]


[Modified by jasyatz, 9:36 PM 6/24/2002]

 

Give a Civic more than 33 seconds on a ProSolo course and it will catch a Subaru 2.5RS in STS.

And all classes can't be fair for all cars. While I feel for the Turbo Beetle (ok, not really), it is not realistic for anyone to autox those things anyway, because they aren't going to make a good car in any class.


[Modified by Todd00, 11:28 PM 6/24/2002]

 

[rant mode on]
This is exactly why I proposed last year that STS be expanded in a fashion similar to Street Prepared - where there is one set of rules and multiple sub-classes based on performance potential. But, that idea was poo-pooed in favor of the cluster-fvck they have now - where there are two sets of rules with two sets of cars, all thrown together so it doesn't make any more sense than any other class (hmmm, AWD turbos competing against FWD 4-bangers, but lets exclude carburated RX-7s and anything from Germany, except for the BMWs, and LSDs are banned, except for the Nissans. Oh, and lets allow them all in STX as well, but toss in WRXes and ITRs).

I'll just stick to CSP. I may no like the class much, but at least I can make sense of it from one month to the next. And anybody who tells me STS/STX is any less expensive than xSP, or easier for a "street" car to compete, is full of baloney.

[rant mode off]

 

...I'd like to continue that rant (more of a whiney/bitchey kind of thing in my case), but in a different direction.

So, the 2.5 RS is allowed in STS. Thing is, STS class rules specifically prohibit any LSD equipped vehicles. But, the RS always has at least 2 wheels making traction no matter what. What a convenient loop hole... This is the kind of thing that's created the cluster f*ck Mr. Crack Monkey is talking about IMO.

To the "great unwashed" (like me) it sure does seem like there was a specific concession made for the RS, and that same concession has not been extended to a number of other cars. Given the precedent they set by including the RS, I think the STS boss's ought to evaluate each and every car for it's "worthiness" to compete in the class. Does anyone honestly believe that the SE-R Spec V is an overdog in STS? Puhleez... It's just another fairly unspectacular victim of the "LSD catch-all". What a mess.

(yeah, yeah... I oughta write a letter but I can't seem to get pumped about a class based on something as nebulous as treadwear ratings... )


[Modified by fsp31, 5:26 AM 6/25/2002]

 

I honestly don't mind 2.5RS's in STS as long as I'm ahead of them. Aside from 4WD, they do have a Rear LSD right, or at least I was under the impression that they hand. It seems though, at least at the Auto-X sites here that Impreza's generally place in the top 5, aside from my beating on Sunday...I had to represent for the DC2 people. Honestly though, I personally don't think Imprezas have THAT much more of an advantage, so let them be.

 

No. STS specifically allows viscous LSDs, but cone and helical types are disallowed. By allowing the "box-of-jello" (as maxQ so affectionately describes his LSD), the SEB not only made manual Impreza 2.5RSs (from my understanding, the automatics have a different LSD, and are therefore illegal for STS), but also the older classic and 200SX Nissan SE-Rs.

Honestly, if I had to guess, I think this proposal comes down to some sour grapes on the part of one person in particular on the STAC, someone who was competitive the first year or two that STS existed, but as the class has grown, this person has become less competitive, and pissed and moaned louder and louder about the presence of the Subarus in the class. The thing is, this person's car was -- before this person bought it -- competitive against the likes of Eric Kriemelmeyer and Richard West, but try telling him that! Frankly, someone with such a personal agenda should not be in such a position.

How do you explain Steve Wynne and his Neon? How do you explain Jason Tipple and his Civic? And don't tell me that the 2001 Nationals were "atypical." Look at Jason's results outside of Topeka.

[rant on]You want to complain about a car that is way too dominant for a class? You want to complain about a car that is/will destroy a class? Why not bitch about the Z06 and what it did to SS over the last year? Why not bitch about what the Mini is doing to HS right now? You look at how those drivers are doing now and how they've done in the past, and then you try to tell me that those cars aren't overdogs, even in half-prepped trim. A freakin' Z06 that is still basically SS trim is tearing up ASP, not just SS! [/rant]

Sorry, but as someone who's driven a couple of different types of well-prepared STS car, I find it hard to believe that this whole "proposal" isn't just a way to get someone's car in a position for an easier win.

Karen
third gen Camaros turn better than my car, can they be moved to BS?

 

STS Started around '98-'99. At that time, the 2.5RS DIDN'T have a limitied slip. Yes, that's right, the '98-'99 2.5RS doesn't have one. It's an open diff in the rear. The wheel that is slipping gets all the power.

Also, classing should not be based on the Pros. But that's where the big $$ is, and if you don't have an AWD vehicle, you're going to be behind on the launch... unless you keep hitting the damn cones... then no amount of AWD will save you (me?) Anyone remember how well the Talon's launch at Pros? Just the same. Yet the Subaru has pulled away all the limelight away from them because it's the new kid on the block and garnering all the attention. Guess what... the Talon/Eclipse still launches as well.

I'm keeping my mouth shut on the rules because Karen pretty much summed up my feelings on this. (I beleive I know exactly who she's talking about) and I don't like getting into battles on public forums, and no bantering that I do here will change anything. However, I do expect my comments regarding this to be read and taken into consideration by the STAC when I send them in this week.

And I encourage you to do the same.

--KC #66 STX WRX Wagon

 

Agreed. Personally, I have no problem w/ the Subbies staying in STS. Regionally, I've been able to beat all but one on a consistent basis, and I'm quite certain I get beat by the driver, not the car. As you already mentioned, one of the great features of STS is that there are several "brands" of cars that can be quite competitive -- from Bimmers to Neons to Civics to 200 SXs to Integras. You should see the showing of Ford Focuses (Foci?) we're getting in Atlanta. Last event there were at least 3.

Glad you mentioned that b/c I've been saying the same thing for a while. There's nothing that can touch the Z06 right now.

And therein lies the real issue. Some folks are more adept and have more time and energy to "work the system" to their liking. The whole SCCA "classing" system is far too fluid to suit me. It totally shafts people who might buy a car like the Impreza b/c they believe it to be a contender in STS, whether for the national tour or the ProSolo.


[Modified by Neo, 9:48 AM 6/25/2002]

 

Since I've been in STX, I've been enjoying autocrossing so much more. Having changed tires for a period of over three years at every autox, mostly twice a month in hot sediv summer temps, I really love the convenience of street tires! What a great invention in autox! It really is a pleasure to show up to an event and just line the car up on grid. I guess that can mean it is "easier" to compete with a street car? Running on R tires is so far in the back of my mind that I'm definitely staying on the azenis for SM once I start autocrossing again in august.

I think there are two major issues going on here. I see the street tire classes and even SM since you are required to run street legal emissions cars with cats, as the base and future of autox at the "fun" regional level. For new people, it is much more appealing to run in one of these classes. But once we get to the high end of autox like the nationals and pro tours (as in every other sport), new factors come into play such as winning and feeding our hungry egos that politics get in the way and that just hurts the sport more than anything.

 

OK, it is easier for you to come out and play, but I still contend that winning will require a seperate set of street tires dedicated to autocorss (maybe West/Kremilmeyer[did I butcher that bad enough?]/etc aren't yet, but i only takes one to force the issue).

That is why regions have the ability to create classes at will. STS/STX, as it was originally conceived (as a recruitment tool), should have been a regional only class (much like IT in club racing).

And SM cars are not required to have emmissions - all SP mods are allowed.

True of any sport. Hell, we even get the bitching/whining/politicing in IT (as you well know) and it doesn't have a "national" level.

Anyways, I don't object to STS in theory (other than the whole tread wear thing). But they really need to leave the rules alone for a few years, forget about STX for a while, and let the class grow. In any sport, rules changes are bad (unless they are in the name of safety) because they introduce extra costs and create unknowns.

 

Give a Civic more than 33 seconds on a ProSolo course and it will catch a Subaru 2.5RS in STS.

Unfortunately, the Prosolo course are shorter than this, almost always..

As as for the "atypical" results in Jason Whipples car, adds to the above theory...and for that I agree...

But unfortunately, the gripe is with the Prosolo's, since that's where the payouts are (as of right now) and when you leave the line, by 100ft, the Subarus are WELL more than a car length ahead of even the BEST pepared (insert your favorite model here) STS car..

On a side note...The Talons are the most spectacular cars to watch launch...
boost is good, but AWD will ALWAYS put the power down...

As for the SS and HS debates...Different forum, different day, but same complaints...Too much car in wrong class...again... Didn't the SEB just redo the stock classifications to remidy this???




[Modified by jasyatz, 7:04 PM 6/25/2002]

 

>>No. STS specifically allows viscous LSDs, but cone and helical types are disallowed. By allowing the "box-of-jello" (as maxQ so affectionately describes his LSD), the SEB not only made manual Impreza 2.5RSs (from my understanding, the automatics have a different LSD, and are therefore illegal for STS), but also the older classic and 200SX Nissan SE-Rs.<<

Funny how that little line got in there about the viscous LSD's. If not for it, then STS would exist almost *exactly* as it is today, only without the 2.5 RS (there is that SE-R from Illinois...). I'm quite sure the SCCA did not have 200SX's and SE-R's in mind when they inserted that little "addendum".

I can't say that I have much of a problem with the favoritism that occurs in some classes, the Mini being the most blatant example I've seen recently (i do hate when it "kills" a class though). But to insist that it isn't occurring in this situation is sort of a stretch. Of course favoritism occurs! Alway has, always will. We're humans after all. Not only that, but maybe Subaru deserves a concession or two for the massive support they've shown the SCCA, but let's call it what it is.

>>And don't tell me that the 2001 Nationals were "atypical." Look at Jason's results outside of Topeka.<<

What? How could they not be??? I don't want to take away from any of the great accomplishments from the last Nationals, but a LOT of people weren't at their best, and I'm not making light of that either. I'll be real surprised if we don't see another 2.5 RS (or 3, or 4) at the top of the STS standings come September. Although, I do hope that Tipple does it again. I am a Honda fan after all...

 

Actually, I have it from a very reliable source that Howard did have the SE-R in mind when that "addendum" was written. Pat, care to comment?
I will be the first to say that the reason STX was created in the first place was to give the WRX a place to play in street touring. However, the crux of my argument is not the favoritism or lack thereof. My point is that the Subarus are not the only competitive car, which I have tried to underscore countless times before, not just in this thread. Must I again point out the sheep-like tendency of National level autocrossers to flock to what is currently winning? Why are people trying to buy still-stock third gen Camaros for FS? Duh!!, it's because of the convincing wins Paul Kozlak had over Mike Johnson in 2001. The fact that you have to have a Kozlak behind the wheel in order to complete the equation escapes most people. So Brian Priebe had a Subaru in 2000. Obviously if one of the Great Trio of Autox Gods chooses a Subaru Impreza over a Civic or a Neon, it's because it's the Dominant Car. It obviously has nothing to do with the fact that his dad is a high muckety-muck in SOA. Brian Priebe drove an Impreza so it must be The Car To Have For The Class. Just like in the late 80s, John Ames drove a Fox-body Mustang in FS..... and pretty soon, so did everyone else. Imagine their surprise when that chassis couldn't keep up with the third gen Camaros with anyone besides Ames or Sapp behind the wheel.
I didn't mean to sound like the 2001 Nationals results weren't skewed, but I get sick of the argument that evidently the only reason Jason Tipple won over the Subarus is because of the atmosphere. Damn it, give the guy some credit. I'm just saying that the argument against the Civic's supposed lack of competitiveness based on the events of 9/11 is ridiculous when you look at Tipple's results from other events. As for the Subaru being at the top of the STS standings, please go back to -- yes, once again -- the sheep mentality argument. Hmmmm, let's see, the fast people buy Subarus..... who is going to be at the top? <finger on chin, contemplative look> Could it be.... the fast people at the top? No matter what they are driving?

Have you driven an STS Impreza? An STS Civic? An STS Neon? An STS Escort? I'm not talking a barely-prepped, it's-got-rimz-and-a-wing-so-put-it-in-ST car, but a well set-up, to the rules STS or STX car. Like the variety of FS cars that are competitive currently, a well-prepped Neon does things that a well-prepped Impreza does not, and vice versa. The problem comes down to the same issue that faces SP classes in many cases. There are people who are not willing to prep their cars to the extent that the rules allow and crab about the cars that are, and then there are also people who refuse to acknowledge that maybe they aren't the driver they think they are.

Dean Sapp, in one of his rare contemplative moments, once told me that autocross is 10% driving and 90% mental. If you are going to sit there and tell yourself, "My little Civic can't keep up with that Subaru," ($5 to whoever knows where this quote comes from!) then you will never be able to beat that Subaru. Unless you take the whiner's way out and pull strings to get it reclassed.

Karen
i've autocrossed more different cars than most of the people on this forum combined

 

SE-Rs aren't the only ones. I'm 100% sure some older Scirrocos (sp?) came with a viscous LSD as well. A VLSD 2100lb 1.8L VW with all the allowable tricks....might be a contendah....

 

Here's a little tidbit for you conspiracy theorists.

Way back in 1998, the Street Touring rules only allowed cars with open differentials. A friend of mine who had a 200SX SE-R wrote a letter or two to Howard Duncan lobbying for SE-R's to be allowed in Street Touring. I'm sure some letters were written by other people, too. Finally it was decreed from Mount SCCA that cars with viscous LSD's would be allowed in Street Touring for the following year.

I don't remember seeing a Subaru at all in STS or STR at any national event in 1999. Heck, the only Subaru I remember seeing compete at all was Richard West's Legacy station wagon in H Stock. That year, STS was added as supplemental class at the National Championships in Topeka, and the class was won by Mark Allen ... in an Integra GS-R. In fact, there wasn't a single Subaru that competed in Topeka in STS that year, but there were two Nissan SE-Rs.

Given all that I am almost positive the SCCA didn't have Subarus in mind at all when they allowed that little "addendum" for viscous LSDs.

Now if Subarus are so dominant in STS, how come they can only win at Pro Solos? Look at the National Tour results from this year -- no Subaru at all has won in STS. The 2.5 RS has an advantage at Pro Solos just like any AWD or mid-engined vehicle. Should WRX's and DSM's be bumped out of D Stock and ESP because they have an advantage off the line in Pro Solo just like the STS Subarus? And what about those poor 1.6L Miatas in ES going up against the MR2's? And I'm sure the S2000's would like to see the turbo MR2's moved out of B Stock.

FWIW, some Nissan 240SX's came with viscous LSD's, too.