I'm new to the forum and currently in the market for a new car. It's coming down to the Civic and the Mazda 3. Did some test drives yesterday, have done a lot review reading and had some questions. Please feel free to let your comments rip -- I'd really appreciate hearing from the Civic owners here. Sorry in advance for the post length but want to give a good picture.

I've been driving a Lexus ES300 for many years but kids are starting to leave the nest and decided I would like something a little smaller, a bit more fuel efficient, stick shift, and a lot more fun to drive.

Over the last couple of weeks I've test driven a Toyota Matrix, Pontiac Vibe, Scion xD, Civic, and the Mazda 3 (touring edition). Decided the hatchbacks just weren't for me. Yesterday I drove a few different Civics. Started with a new 2007 LX Coupe - very nice but I like the look and the functionality of the 4-door better. So, after driving the Civic LX 4-door 5-speed, I went up the road and drove a 2008 Mazda 3. That 2.3 liter engine is a blast. But the interior didn't fit me as nicely as the Civic, and the fit and finish just didn't seem to be as good as the Civic. But it sure was a hoot to drive! So that prompted me to go back to the Honda dealership and drive a Civic Si. Maybe that was a mistake After 10 miles on street and highway, the first thing that popped into my head was I'd want to move out in the country so I'd have a longer commute!

So, I'm torn between the Civic LX and the Civic Si. The frugal and practical side of me says go with the LX. It was a fantastic car - great ride, nice handling, very comfortable. But the middle aged kid in me says go with the Si! The seats are much more comfortable. It has a much sportier look and feel to it. Better stereo and a few more amenities than the LX. But the truth is, the LX meets my needs just fine.

The dealer is offering the 2008 LX to me for $17,095 and a 2007 Si for $20,590. I was hoping I'd have more bargaining power with the Si since they have three of them on the lot and it's now one model year old. The Hondas seem to hold their value well and I'm thinking that the extra $3500 for the Si would hold its value as well. And did I mention how FUN the Si is to drive?

So, some questions:
1. I've read many comments critical of Honda's reported MPG for the Civic. It seems many owners are getting nowhere near the mid to upper 30's Honda reports. How accurate is the MPG?
2. Any ideas on how much of an insurance premium increase there may be for the Si over the LX?
3. Are the prices quoted by the dealer fair? $500 off sticker for an '08 LX and $1000 off sticker for an '07 Si seem pretty slim. Should I have more wiggle room or is the demand such they can snub their nose at me?
4. There are also many complaints about the Civic's seats. I wasn't in them long enough to tell if they were a problem. The Si's seat was definitely more comfortable to me than the LX. Any complaints in this department?
5. Any other comments good or bad that are relevant to my search are greatly appreciated.

Thanks!!

 

You live nowhere near me so I will respond as openly as Honda allows me to.

Honda decreased their holdbacks this past year so the margins dealers deal with are smaller first of all. $500 off sticker on an 08 is not out of line because we all still have a few remaining 07's we want gone... now. Si's are tight, they are only going to get worse, in the coming months. Like I posted somewhere in another thread we have all our 07's and the 08's won't be in till around Halloween.

Gas mileage is what it is, no one in any make was getting the window sticker numbers, that was why they changed the guidelines.

 

Hey I live near you.......What dealer have you been dealing with? Holtz is generally pretty good.

I have a 07 Si coupe and do allot of commuting (45 miles each way) and I get right around 30mpg. That's with a very heavy foot.

As for prices, the $1000 off for the 4 door is pretty good.

I believe the Si will hold its value far better than the LX since

A: Its a Higher end model for the civic line
B: There are definitely far fewer Si's compared to the rest of civics on the road.
C: More options and night/Day performance compared to the other civics


Let me know if you would like to meet up.....ill let u beat on my car for a few if need be.

 

Hey thanks for the feedback. Holtz has nothing right now. 07's are gone and no 08's for another month or so. Ontario has a couple Si's they want to get rid of and one EX. Dick Ide has the most of any one around here -- about twenty 08's and four '07 Si's.

I've got an email into my insurance agent with an Si VIN for a quote. I'm not expecting bad news since I'm middle aged with a clean license but I got burned with a premium on a motorcycle a few years back and want to check out the Si's premium.

This forum is great. I've learned a lot just searching and reading here this morning -- like what a PITA the Si oil filter is -- kind of disappointing since I like to do maintenance. Still trying to find out why it's different than the other Civics, maybe due to the oil pump?

I've never seen an Si on the road around here, but I'm a lot more tuned into Civics now so I bet I see some!

 

My insurance went down when I bought the 07 Si. Before that I had an 03, but the NEw one has many more safety features etc.

Im not to keen on Ontario.....IMO they have a crappy service dept. Its not the techs, its the people who actually run it.

 

If you get the LX you'll wish you got the Si.

Sounds like you can afford it and life is too short to settle for a few dollars saved per month.

I've been averaging 28-29mpg. Worst was around 25 and best 32. Insurance was $100 more every 6 months than my 93 EX coupe.

I really enjoy everything about the car so far. My wife said my next car had to be a sedan incase we have kids so the Si was the choice for me

 

Ok here goes.. hopefully this can help you. For one, you can get teh SI WAY down if it's an 07. I got mine in the end of april for (I beleive) 20,000 even AND a grand for my trade-in, which was only appraised @ $100 by 4 dealerships. Yes, it was a complete hunk of **** 1993 taurus.. spray painted exterior, the works.

1. I've read many comments critical of Honda's reported MPG for the Civic. It seems many owners are getting nowhere near the mid to upper 30's Honda reports. How accurate is the MPG?

I own a 2006 Civic LX automatic and a 2007 Civic SI sedan, so I feel like I can comment pretty well on all of your questions. For a long time, I could only get about 29-31 on the LX. After about 8k miles, I've hit about 37-39 the (very rare) few times I've driven it. Maybe I was driving it the 'wrong' way in the beginning, who knows. HOWEVER, I've also hit (no joke.. no one ever believes this) 36.7 MPG in the SI on ONE occassion. Quite often I hit ~32 MPG and I average 29-30. I don't take it easy on the SI and she is usually in the upper RPM range, so I love the gas mileage I'm getting.


2. Any ideas on how much of an insurance premium increase there may be for the Si over the LX?

For my SI, it is $600 more a year than the LX. For $50 more a month.. it's worth it! I'm also younger than you most likely (22), so yours should be much cheaper. Neither should impact you much, civics are cheap.

3. Are the prices quoted by the dealer fair? $500 off sticker for an '08 LX and $1000 off sticker for an '07 Si seem pretty slim. Should I have more wiggle room or is the demand such they can snub their nose at me?

No, there is always 'wiggle' room. You can get a Civic for invoice if you try hard enough. What you need to do is consult several dealers via the internet for a quote. Then go back to the one you prefer to buy from with the best quote and tell them they need to beat it. My dealer refused to go lower than $21,885. I told her I got a quote of $20,200 and 1k for the trade-in (which wasn't entirely true) and they beat it by $200. ALSO go on the last (or latest possible day) of the month. They refused my deal, I walked.. they called me back on the 28th of april.

4. There are also many complaints about the Civic's seats. I wasn't in them long enough to tell if they were a problem. The Si's seat was definitely more comfortable to me than the LX. Any complaints in this department?

Seats in the LX are kind of cheap, but they aren't uncomfortable for me. If you have any sort of back pains it might be (obviously) because of the lack of lumbar support. The SI seats are fantastic, but I've heard of complaints from people with wide backs and having the side bolsters digging in.. no problems from me. They rock

5. Any other comments good or bad that are relevant to my search are greatly appreciated.

If you want to have FUN, do not get the LX. Yes the LX can potentially be fun.. but it's boring as hell once you've driven an SI, or anything remotely quick. Trust me when I say.. you'll regret it every day of your life after owning the LX for 4 months that you didn't get the SI!

Also you comment on the Mazda3 interior confuses me [I'm a mazda fanboi I suppose]. The 3's interior I would say is above the interior of my accord EX, which is pretty decently nice. I think mazda is usually on part with ~30-40k cars on the interior dept. Wish my SI had the ms3 interior

Anyways good luck, I hope my answer helped

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kboyer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was hoping I'd have more bargaining power with the Si since they have three of them on the lot and it's now one model year old.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You will have more bargaining power on the LX. The Si is a low margin car so there isn't as much room to negotiate. The Si has more demand, therefore many dealers tend to stand their ground on pricing. Try to find out how many days the vehicle has been on the lot. They are more motivated to move a vehcile approaching 60 days in age or older. Often there can be a number written on the windshield of the vehicle, usually in white. Keep in mind the dealer recieves 3% of the MSRP from Honda, this is know as holdback. Ask to have the Doc fee discounted from the price of the vehicle, or at least try to get it as low as possible.

On another note, It would have been cool of Honda to offer the K20A3, or a motor similar to the Candian Acura CSX in the DX LX EX.

 

Every Honda runs the same margin for the dealer except the GX civic FYI

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NorCalInternet &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Every Honda runs the same margin for the dealer except the GX civic FYI </TD></TR></TABLE>

No, they do not, unless you can tell me something we don't know.

Setting aside advertising charges, and Spiffs, I have to retract my statement about having more margin in LX vs the Si.

Here is an example on Civic Coupes.

The difference between invoice and MSRP on the 2007 Civic line up are as follows;

Civic DX 5MT $1166
Civic LX 5MT $1328
Civic EX 5MT $1489
Civic Si 6MT $1686

Further on 2007 models dealers recieve 3% of base MSRP, which if the dealer sells the vehicles quickly means additional margin.

Civic Si $632.70
Civic EX $561.30
Civic LX $502.80
Civic DX $444.30

So how is the margin the same on all? Lets not discuss the Fit, or Honda's Reluctance to develop the S1000 of fear for pushing another low margin vehicle on it's dealers.

I try to sell base models to customers because it leaves more room in their budget to sell add ons which increase margin.

 

Lots of great information here, thanks all.

I guess I'm just a bit surprised to read that there is more room to negotiate on the LX model, particularly since the LX's at this dealer are 08's and they have a bunch of '07 Si's. They were pretty quick to knock $1000 of the Si sticker price, and it was more work to get them to knock $500 off the '08 LX sticker. I took this as a sign they were motivated to move those '07 Si's. Maybe not. I'll try to find out how long they've been on the lot though.

Great tip on trying to eliminate or reduce the doc fee. I thought that was one of those fees that was an automatic. What is it and how can you effectively argue to remove or reduce it?

I've come to the conclusion that I just really want a Civic. Of all the cars I've test driven, this is the one that makes me want more. An Si would be great. But if price or insurance are more than I want to pay, the LX will do just fine too. The Si is appealing because it's been 20 years since I've driven a fun car though!

Thanks again. If you have any input on my comments above, please fire away!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kboyer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Lots of great information here, thanks all.

I guess I'm just a bit surprised to read that there is more room to negotiate on the LX model, particularly since the LX's at this dealer are 08's and they have a bunch of '07 Si's. They were pretty quick to knock $1000 of the Si sticker price, and it was more work to get them to knock $500 off the '08 LX sticker. I took this as a sign they were motivated to move those '07 Si's. Maybe not. I'll try to find out how long they've been on the lot though.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, there is NOT more room to negotiate on the LX than an SI. There's a reason why every dealer has several SI sedans sitting on the lot - they aren't particuarlily desirable to most. There has to be a reason to buy it over the coupe, and looks generally won't be that reason.

When I got my LX, I paid $18,200. My wife HAD to have it, and absolutely NO dealer would go below that price. The LX/EX are just in popular demand, MUCH more so than the SI. Whoever thinks the SI is a more in-demand vehicle is nuts

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cnyej1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hey I live near you.......What dealer have you been dealing with? Holtz is generally pretty good.

I have a 07 Si coupe and do allot of commuting (45 miles each way) and I get right around 30mpg. That's with a very heavy foot.

As for prices, the $1000 off for the 4 door is pretty good.

I believe the Si will hold its value far better than the LX since

A: Its a Higher end model for the civic line
B: There are definitely far fewer Si's compared to the rest of civics on the road.
C: More options and night/Day performance compared to the other civics


Let me know if you would like to meet up.....ill let u beat on my car for a few if need be. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I so don't get 30mpg. I think mine needs another re-flash.

 

Go with the Si... Not just because its the fun one and because your inner child wants it, but because in the end, its just a better car.

The Si is in much lower production than the LX models and will hold its value well. Driven conservately my car (comfortably broken in at 35k miles) can get 32+ highway miles per gallon. I get around 330 miles per tank and thats nearly breaking 100mph daily, vtec-ing all over the place... I love the car, handles like a dream, seems to ride on rails with good tires right out of the box.

The LX would be better for LONG commutes, although i would reccomend the EX for better features. But, either way... if you get the LX, dont expect that drive to be as fun.

 

If a dealer sold a new car for invoice price and hasn't been on their lot long they still make a decent profit. Honda dealers receive 3% of the base MSRP of the particular model. When I say base I mean that the MSRP before any optional equipment is added like HFP wheels, Navigation, etc. This hold back is to pay for the vehicle's interest for the first 90 days. Thus why a dealer is motivated to sell a vehicle that's been there a while.

Another is the DOC fee, short for documentation fee. This is the fee dealers charge you to complete all paper work associated with your car, like title work, sales tax, etc. Some states regulate this fee by capping it. Ethical dealers really shouldn't charge you more than $100 to do this. Anything more than $50 usually is profit. In 1996, when I bought my 1st new vehicle, this fee was explained to me by the sales consultant. He stated "It's to pay for vacations and office supplies, and mechanics tools." Me and my mother promtly left and soon chased after because we refused to pay the fee. Needless to say the fee was discounted from the vehicles price despite the vehicle being the advertised door buster.

Sometimes there are rebates associated with a particular model, but this isn't always the case with Honda. Recently Honda was offering huge rebates on Accords because they pumped out an *** load of accords because they are retooling the factory for the 2008 model change, thus all the Accords sitting on dealer lots. Why would anyone buy a 2007 for a similar price to a new body style 08?

85% of buyers are payment buyers, and try to negotiate down payment and or monthly payment instead of negotiating vehicle price and trade value.

Negotiate the price of the new vehicle 1st. Always start at invoice price in your mind. Never disclose what you want your payments at or what you want to put down.

If you have a trade, pay a professional to detail it, or better yet recondition it. Be sure that all maintenance issue are resolved and brakes and tires are 80% or better. The better your trade is the less likely the dealer can knock off money from it. If they ask you when the last time you had something done to the vehicle was it's because they are trying to devalue the car. A dealer is trying to get your trade as far below KBB wholesale as possible so they can wholesale it instead of trying to sell it on their lot and still make money. Chances are, if its older than 3 years and has more than 50k miles on it they won't try to sell it on their lot. If they sell it on their lot they have to be able to put as little money into it and be able to offer attractive financing and extended warranties with them.

The reason managers don't want to put a lot of money into your trade is because if it sells for a loss it comes out of their salary. Would you want $3000 coming out of your paycheck? The best thing you can do is recondition the vehicle to be traded, or have it professionally detailed and sell it yourself. Pay to advertise it in the auto trader at a fair price, don't be frugal and stick a for sale sign and park it. Negative equity is the biggest killer of car deals.

Negotiate the price of the car and your trade next and let your credit and down payment determine the payment. Though, smart buyers get their own financing before going to a dealer and have several price quotes from competing dealers.

The benefits of putting money down is you are financing less and will pay less for the loan. You will have instant equity and be in a position to get money back should you decide to sell it in a year. You will have a shorter trade cycle and be in a better position to trade 2-4 years later. Also, your payments will be lower.

Be smart and take your time. A new vehicle is usually the 2nd largest purchase a consumer makes.


Modified by Kidnkorner at 12:11 AM 9/10/2007


Modified by Kidnkorner at 12:17 AM 9/10/2007

 

This has to be some of the best coaching and advice I've ever received on the art of buying a new car. Thanks so much for taking the time to post this information. Really good stuff. I feel well armed now.

I've contacted 7 Honda dealers around western new York inquiring on their stock of black, sedan, Si's. The follow up phone calls should be interesting. My intent is to simply get the lowest quoted price without talking about a trade-in. My hope is that one of the larger out of town dealers will spit out a better quote on an Si and I can take that to the local dealer and see of they match it. $20,590 is the best I've gotten locally so far and that dealer has FOUR Si's sedans that look like they've been there for a while.

 

FYI Honda no longer gives 3% holdback, it has been reduced, there is also 1% of invoice going to advert fees in most states on top of nationally advertised invoice prices.

 

So one of the local dealers has agreed to come down to $20,199. That's about as good as I can hope for after talking to about 8 dealers in western New York. Also, I supplied Allstate with the Si's VIN and the annual premium for 300/100 coverage, collision, and a $500 deductible is $350. They said the Civics fantastic safety record translates into a low premium. The LX was a bit lower at $300/ year.

With any luck I'll be in an Si by the end of the week

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kidnkorner &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

No, they do not, unless you can tell me something we don't know.

Setting aside advertising charges, and Spiffs, I have to retract my statement about having more margin in LX vs the Si.

Here is an example on Civic Coupes.

The difference between invoice and MSRP on the 2007 Civic line up are as follows;

Civic DX 5MT $1166
Civic LX 5MT $1328
Civic EX 5MT $1489
Civic Si 6MT $1686

Further on 2007 models dealers recieve 3% of base MSRP, which if the dealer sells the vehicles quickly means additional margin.

Civic Si $632.70
Civic EX $561.30
Civic LX $502.80
Civic DX $444.30

So how is the margin the same on all? Lets not discuss the Fit, or Honda's Reluctance to develop the S1000 of fear for pushing another low margin vehicle on it's dealers.

I try to sell base models to customers because it leaves more room in their budget to sell add ons which increase margin.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Margin in sales is a % not a dollar figure. Your margin is what % you make off a unit, ie. sell a car for sticker and you make an 8% profit margin if you have advert fees like most markets do. Profit amounts vary by trim and model... the margin on them is a flat fixed number from Honda. Like I said above the holdback is no longer 3%. I would say dealers have no problem with low margin vehicles, what they have problems with are 2 cars a week for the first 16 months on the market causing waits and frustrations and Honda customers getting fed up and buying another make, Fit deals are great because they are so dang simple and they are actually the sort to buy accessories much like Element drivers and the spiffs on that stuff is nice.


Modified by NorCalInternet at 7:34 PM 9/10/2007

 

Does that $20,199 include destination?
That's pretty much invoice if it does, right?

Good job!

 

Yes, that includes destination and docs. Does not include the various NYS fees and tax. I have an appointment to meet with them today. If all goes well, I should have a new car tomorrow.

 

good price! go for it Si or nothing. I was looking at more costly cars like the subi legacy gt for 29g's and came across the 4dr Si for 20.300 no brainer the SI is the best bang for the buck and I still dont see anything coming close, fun,resale, safty, fit and finish. GOOD LUCK.

 

Done deal! Pickup is at 3:30 PM tomorrow. Yahoo!

 

Congrats!!!
What color, and where did you buy from?

 

A Happy end to the story...............It's bed time now.