I have a b16b and i want to sleeve it and bore it to raise the displacement.
what is the maximum bore i could run using sleeves?
i dont want to stroke the motor as i want to retain its high revving capabilites, but i would like some extra displacement and that is why i want to bore it.

with the bore and stroke how do i calculate my total displacement?
(formula please)

 

i believe u can have it sleeved to 2.0L either 94mm or 95mm bore

 

Increasing the stroke to yield 1.8L won't do all that much to harm the B16B's ability to rev. There are plenty of B18C5's that can happily spin to 9,000 for extended periods, assuming they're running an appropriate valvetrain.

 

displacement = (pi*r(squared)) * stroke * #cylinders

(if I remember my math right).

 

ya increasing the stroke to 1.8L might not hurt it too bad if im only revving to 9k rpm seeing that the integra type r can do 10k with valvetrain mods no problemo.. but id like to be revving 11k+ so the shorter the stroke the better...
with the proper setup i think i can pull off making 250whp, but all my power would be in the top end and thats why i wanted a little more displacement to help my low end, and give me a lil more push on the street when i dont want to rev my car like a bike!

 

If the block is resleeved,on an all motor set up you can go as high as 85mm or 86mm safely for and all motor set up,but i would definately replace the crank with either a 87 type R crank or even better yet go with the ls 89mm, as far as high reving capability both of these can be revved the same once your motor is built correctly.

***my itr with stock 87 crank revvs 10k rpm with no problem ***

 

well i think id be safer off revving my 77 to 10k than you are with ur 87..
i know someone who has an built h22 destroked to 2 litres and he makes around 300hp at 13k.
u try revving an ls to 10k with valvetrain mods it might make power up there but how long will it last?
there is a REASON honda put the vtec head on a shorter stroke, so that it could rev higher.. and u get guys who make an lsvtec or b20vtec and think they can rev it as high as a type R and they kill thier motor.. the vtec head mighta made u more power, but the bottom is what it is, and its limits have not changed and u r asking for trouble revving ur ls past 9000 and it wouldnt be too smart pushing the b20 past 8000... its not about what can be done.. its about what can be done consistently..
but anyways now this is going sorta off topic because i DID NOT want to stroke it...
i am asking what i can safely bore it to..



Modified by 187Chor at 7:35 PM 9/5/2007

 

You can go 85 and still daily drive the car. You can go up 87mm but your cylinder walls will be VERY thin. I've seen many all motor drag cars that are 87mm bore and 87mm stroke. Works very well

 

Not to be rude but i think i did answer your bore question.

 

my bad i saw 85 86 87 89 and i guess i read ur post too fast and thought u were suggesting i increase my stroke to those #s but 85 and 86 were in reference to the bore while 87 and 89 was for the stroke rite?

thanks for the advice...

i actually was only contemplating going as far as 83mm to stay on the safe side unless someone tells me they are running bigger and it has lasted them a long while.

 

With all respect, how do you plan on making a 250whp daily driver with an 83mm bore and a 77mm stroke?

You my friend, are going to need some serious head work, which is going to adversely affect your ability to drive the car on the street to the point where it is almost impossible. And i still doubt you'll reach it - however feel free to prove me wrong when you do.

250whp costs a serious amount of money and is no easy task for an all motor car - i've tried going there myself and ran out of funds as well as enthusiasm. If you have the money then go for it, but in my opinion, the fact that you are even asking this question shows your lack of knowledge. I would do some seroius research and bring your goals back down to earth.

On a side note - i would love to see the dyno plot of a 2.0 litre H22 holding 300whp at 13,000 rpm. But for some reason, i don't think i will


Modified by aussiecivicek9 at 9:40 PM 9/5/2007

 

hmm you are quite correct, it is a hard goal to achieve.. and will be very costly.. i dont expect to have the motor built as i have planned it anytime soon, rather have it put together piece by piece, as funds allow..
i understand in the end it might not be too streetable but thats not my concern when building this motor.. i want reliability.. be it on the track or street... i'd hate to spend 20g on a motor and have it blow up in 2000km..

id expect i would have spent over $20k on the motor when it's complete, and i have no problem with that. if funds were a problem i would not have started with a b16b which people told me was an over-rated over priced motor.

why am i building this set-up? because not many other people do, and i have an itch to find out how far i can take it.. if it had been done i'd simply read a thread on it and satisfy my curiosity.. luckily i have been given this chance to be the guineau pig.. another reason why i want to build a car that revs so high, i like the sound of a high revving motor.. i want a car that sounds like a bike or F1 car.. another reason, i want to build a civic that can go 300km/h+ and because it tops out around 230km/h at the moment the only way to make it faster is to rev it higher.. i will swap the 5th gear from the LS tranny to make it a bit longer but that only bumps up the current redline to 240-250km/h...

as for the friend with the destroked h22, it was 3 years ago, he had it in a 96 accord, and i doubt he would have kept dyno sheets.. he is currently building a similar setup for a 92 civic.. and i dont think it will be done for another year, and when it is, i will post dynos along with my own.. and btw i never seen the car, he had it before i met him, but he has no reason to lie to me, and i never said it was 300whp... i just said 300hp.. i cannot say if thats at the crank or wheels because i never asked.. im just gonna wait til it's done and see what it puts out.. my focus is on my own motor at the moment.. and if he says he made 300 out of his h22 i think 250 out of my b16b is achievable..

i originally wanted to do an h22 when i had heard about the motor he had built, but opted not to BECAUSE i felt it would be too heavy and not handle too well in my civic..

here are the major power producing mods i plan to do on the motor
it started off as a 1.6L making 185hp @8200 rpm
bore it to 1.75-1.8L
13.?+ compression forged pistons
bigger fuel injectors
port n polish
custom cams to make power to 13000rpm
individual throttle body
motec standalone ecu for custom map to make power to that high rpm and to idle at 2000+ rpm and for the itb
valve springs, retainer, valves
cam gears
titanium rods
hytech header
2.5 inch exhaust piping

so theres the plan in a nutshell... how much power do u think it could make?
if u think im missing something please let me know... i appreciate the feedback.. (negative or positive)

****
look heres a guy makin 218whp on a b16b..

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1335784

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 187Chor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
i know someone who has an built h22 destroked to 2 litres and he makes around 300hp at 13k.
u try revving an ls to 10k with valvetrain mods it might make power up there but how long will it last? </TD></TR></TABLE>


i find it interesting that you've put these 2 comments back to back


you say your friend is running an engine that was NOT designed to rev passed about 7.5k, and its not cracking 13k, but something else equally designed to rev won't last at 10k?


double standards there i feel


ANY engine will not last if its pounded with revs


but, good luck with your build. i think you're gonna need it man

 

yes the h22 with stock stroke redlines at 7500rpm or something? u could probably push it to 9000 (like how most ppl will do with thier gsrs)... BUT i said it was a DESTROKED H22 and the purpose of destroking it was to rev it higher... if it had used the stock stroke it would fail just as if you used the ls stroke and revved it to 10k...
essentially what is a destroked b18c1?? answer: a b16.. what is a stroked b16? a b18c1
maybe now u can understand why those comments are back to back...

like with the s2000 motor.. it first came out in 2.0L revved high and made 240hp.. they then upped the displacement by 200cc (more stroke) and it didnt rev as high but made the same amount of power...

and about destroking to rev higher... i might even destroke my b16b if it is required!
thats why i wanna know how much i can safely bore it because i dont want to drop to a 1.5L!

but thanks for the good luck wishes tho..

 

On a side note, the f20b is a destroked h22 from honda. It can rev to 8.5k if i remember right, but in stock form it puts out something like 3 hp less than the h22.
Look in the allmotor forum and you will see h22's make 250 whp, which is about 300 hp at the crank and none of them re to 13k. I highly doubt your friend revs to 13k, but who knows, maybe he does.

OP, are you sure what you have in mind is streetable? i mean big compression, and giant cams are not exactally street friendly, but i guess if you wanted to drive an f1 car on the street nothing says you can't. (except the law)

 

oooo, you can also get that spoon k20 with the f20 internals? I forget, check youtube, it revs to 13k, but it doesn't look like it makes power up there.

 

yes the f20b.. from what i know its redline is 6500rpm ya u could probably take it a 1000 or so higher daily.. now why does it not make as much power as the h22.. its design is different.. one is a SOHC VTEC and the other is DOHC VTEC. the f20b made for a car in which u would not be going fast.. u will want moderate power at low rpm's for fuel economy.. but u put in a cam that makes power to 8000+ rpm and it will.. still not as much as the h22 tho because its not DOHC.. 2 different motors for 2 different applications..
my statment of destroking a motor isnt a generalization in making power.. most of the time for practical purposes youd want to up the stroke to get more power as with the LS.... or newer S2000's (duno the engine code)

but yes i will check out the all motor forum for the h22 set-ups to see if anyone has similar setups to the one my friend used to have..
this is my FIRST day on this site so i do have a bit of exploring to do
actually i take that back i signed up a while back but hadn't been on the site for many years.. and about those guys making 250whp and not revving to 13k.... well imagine how much power they WOULD have made if they revved that high and had the proper setup for it.. hmmmm close to 300?? maybe......

yes i am mocked by my mechanic on a daily basis and told it is not streetable.. but he also knows if i want it, i will get it, and if he doesn't want to build it for me, then i will find someone who will..

when u look at the motors in most of the performance cars these days, they are detuned race engines.. race engines made streetable.. and what im doing it trying to restore them back to thier original race form..
the honda f1 team uses a 3L V10... now u must wonder, with 10 cylinders why are they only producing 3L in total?? if they had strokes in thier motor as long as b series engines they would somewhere around 5L.... so they have a motor with a VERY SHORT stroke... and for what purpose?? to make LOTS of power at high rpms.. the exact # being 900hp @ 18,000 rpms....
they say there is no replacement for displacement, and that might be true on most unmodded crap cars, but in reality there is a replacement for displacement and its called volumetric efficiency, and if the people on this thread did not believe that they would not be driving hondas which are among the most efficient engines.. taking the b16b for example which makes 185hp out of a 1.6L (more efficient than the motor in a FERRARI F360 MODENA! which i might add has a bore of 85mm and stroke of 79mm) and this is why I am using this motor!
now that "replacement" does come at a cost, and that is reliability... an F1 car would have a very limited lifespan set up the way it is, infact the motors are rebuilt after every race! and therefore in the real world manufacturers try and find a happy medium between displacement and volumetric efficiency.. and what im trying to do is find a half way point between my stock b16b that woulda probably lasted 200,000km and an f1 engine that lasts 1000km.....

sorry for typing so much... i just wanted to be clear

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 187Chor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yes the f20b.. from what i know its redline is 6500rpm ya u could probably take it a 1000 or so higher daily.. now why does it not make as much power as the h22.. its design is different.. one is a SOHC VTEC and the other is DOHC VTEC. </TD></TR></TABLE>


no, there was an F20B that came in the Torneo SiR-T, 2.0 DOHC VTEC and 200bhp


the point i was making dude about the destroked H22 in relation to the LS, the destroked H22, it is still a 2.0.

it still has big fat lumps of metal with incredible piston velocities. so, looking at it on the face of things, you have a 2.0 H22 revving to 13k, and a 1.8 LS revving to 10k. i know that the stresses and forces on that 2.0 H22 revving to 13k would be far higher

but like i say, good luck, and let us know how you get on

 

well u cant say the f20 was destroked and look it made the same or less power than the h22.. there are many variables involved... sometimes less displacement gives u less power, sometimes it might yield u more... theres TOO many variables..
BUT in terms of how high you can rev your motor safely.. which is ONE variable im making power.. the h22 has a stroke of 90.70mm and the LS has 89mm.. and i said in stock forms they would both rev to the same limit before failure.. so u could do head work to either motor and now it makes power to a higher rpm.. as i mentioned earlier in typical cases where ppl do head work and want to make power another 1000rpm higher so they arent just revving higher for no reason and we all like to think pushing it 1000-1500rpm past redline is ok.. but the manufacturer knows the limits of the motor and its reliability and if they could have revved it higher to give u more power they probably would have.. and u will notice on engines in the same family, for example the B series, the motors which have the shorter stroke have higher redlines set BY THE MANUFACTURER. this is due to r/s ratio.
we can go back and forth here with out posts but neither of us is smarter than the engineers at honda. based upon clearly visible realizations from the setups of thier motors, we could assume that an h22 destroked to a stroke shorter than a b18b1 will rev higher and safer. why??? r/s ratio

*** scientific proof ***

as we can see from the h23a which has a stroke of 95mm, and the h22 having a stroke of 90.70mm a decrease in 4.3mm of stroke results in 100cc less (2157cc).
minus another 4.3mm of stroke and ur at 86.4 and 2057cc in total..
minus another 4.3 and ur at 82.1mm and 1957cc..
another 4.3mm and ur at 77.8mm & 1857cc..
and at 75.65mm stroke u have 1807cc!
but wait the setup i mentioned was a 2 litre! so we increase the bore from 87mm to 90mm and we have 2 LITRES...
now back to the h22 which had a redline of 7600 and the h23 a redline of 6500..
a difference of 1100rpm and a difference of 4.3mm of stroke..
and from the h22s original configuration of 90.70mm of stroke to the new 75.65mm is a difference of 15.05mm..
and we divide that by 4.3 and we get 3.5..
and we will multipy that by the difference in rpm which was 1100 and we would get 3850.
now like i said before im not an engineer but from what we see from the already proven honda engines and using simple mathematics i can assume the h22 with the shortened stroke of 75.65mm can safely rev 3850rpm higher than before which gives it a new redline of 11,450rpm.. i repeat, this is a # it can rev to safely while the LS does NOT rev to 10000rpm safely, rather approx 7500rpm... but hey we all like to push the manufacturers specs and rev it a bit higher rite? so lets add 1500rpm .. the LS is at 9000 the h22 is at 13000... but wait u compared the LS @ 10k ... (NOT 9k) to the H22 @ 13k

now u tell me, which looks like its being stressed out more? i said more cuz i know they are BOTH being stressed past thier redline.

 

Mate, i'll help you out here:

1. Firstly, be grateful that you haven't had your **** flamed yet

2. acheiving 250 WHEEL hp is really tough, but do-able. HOWEVER, you are giong to need AT LEAST an 87mm stroke and AT LEAST an 84mm bore as a base. There is so much more required here (i.e. expensive headwork) but PLEASE remember that displacement is your friend.

3. In NO WAY can you extrapolate your rather simplified views about F1 engine dynamics and apply that theory to a 15 year old b-series engine design. You cannot argue that simply by decreasing stroke and increasing RPM you will continue to make power.

4. If you want some engine building advice, go to the all motor forum. And if you want to be taken seriously by them or anyone with any engine building knowledge or experience, forget you ever mentioned 13,000 rpm.

5. A b-series engine will rarely make any decent power past 10,000 rpm. They are massively inhibited by camshaft, head design, and flow capacity. There is no comparison to an F1 engine here at all.

6. 250 WHEEL hp on a 77mm stroke - if you honestly think you can do it by hitting 13,000rpm on an 83-85mm bore then go for it. In my opinion, you've got more chance of finding that pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. If you don't belive me, take it to the all motor forum and prepare for some quality flaming.

7. 218whp in your example is still 30 whp less than where you want to be - do you really think its a simple case of adding RPM? Do you have any idea how much stress an engine takes even at 10,000 RPM? Do you have any idea where to find that extra hp? Do you think your theory is new and revelationary? Have you asked youself why you've never seen the final result you dream of?

8. Lastly, this is not the place for speculation on power figures and hypothetical builds.

If you can find an engine builder that will even entertain your theory then mortgage your house and let him get on with building it. Keep us updated along the way mind you - i'm all for new ideas


Sorry for the long reply, but it seems as though every time someone discovers the rpm capabilities of honda engines, they seem determined to join this site and voice their revolutionary idea of maximising rpm (insert carcasm) to achieve some sort of unearthly and intangible power goal. This my friend, does not add any value to the site. All it does is aggravate those who have any knowledge of engine building.

Do some searching, find a build similar to the one you want to acheive. If you can't find what you have in mind, ask yourself why it hasn't already been done.

 

In short you're wrong - cost is not the inhibitive factor - its incapable engine dynamics, incredibly high engine stress and an inability to flow enough air to operate beneficially at such RPM.

BUT - if you think obtaining your goal its that simple, money being the only factor, then do it and get back to us when you're done.

*** this reply was meant to be below the reply below

 

well i appreciate your reply...

as for me getting flamed for my lack of knowledge or misinterpretation of the facts out there, thats quite alright, if someone doesn't set me straight then i mighta continued thinking i was right all along..

and yes i was taking what i saw and trying to extrapolate some #s. i DONT KNOW what my friends setup was with his h22.... he just said 300hp and i came home one nite just like how i did right now and tried to guesstimate what i might be able to make..

as for why someone hasn't done it already......

cost..

and the fact that u could make ALOT MORE power and also way cheaper if you just went with forced induction..

what would MOST sensible ppl do?
spend $5000 on a 300whp turbo setup or $20,000+ on a 250whp N/A setup?

so when taking this route to the point i plan to you recieve endless criticism, and its hard to ask people for advice, even mechanics, cuz no one out there has tried to do it...

you said "A b-series engine will rarely make any decent power past 10,000 rpm. They are massively inhibited by camshaft, head design, and flow capacity."

well luckily i have the b series motor with the best camshaft, head design and flow capacty so id say im ahead of most other who might try this out.. unless they also have the b16b like that guy who i gave the example of making 218whp.. and in that case the limits can be modified... better head design, port and polish giving better flow capacity, more aggresive cams.... all so that i CAN make power past 10,000 rpm.. i would not rev my motor that high if i could not make power that high.. but on the flipside if they had a head design that made power past 10,000rpm, it would be of no use if your bottom end did not allow you to safely rev that high to begin with...

you asked if i thought my theory was new and revolutionary.... no of course not.. and its not my theory at all... and its not even theory.. its fact.. i was simply stating fact.. and why dont we see it often? we do.. on f1 cars.. why dont we see it on the road.. #1 affordability #2 streetability

......so i dont take everyones flames with disregard, because i am not a know-it-all and i did come here to learn, but i also dont get discouraged too easily either...

this thread might have been better off in the all motor forum, i only started it in this section because i have a TYPE R, and figured even tho its a CTR it might share characteristics of the INTEGRA TYPE R..

well its 535am goodnite ppl

 

You're wrong - cost is not the inhibitive factor - its incapable engine dynamics and an inability to flow enough air to operate beneficially as such RPM. You simply drown your engine in stress.

BUT - if you think obtaining your goal its that simple money being the only factor, then do it and get back to us when you're done.

 

dude there right to get close to that 250whp mark your gonna have a all out drag car motor and its not gonna be reliable at all..

your gonna only be able to stick so much cam into that motor, your gonna need custom valve springs, custom cams, custom pistons. head work that will make that bitch fall on her face down low,

Now you aid this and i was like this kids nuts

you want to add motec to your car? come on that thinsg fuckinf $$$$.

your b can only pump so much air in and out and that is your limiting factor

 

when you compare a ls vtec or a b20 vtec to a gsr or itr motor saying the ls/b20 is not going to rev and be reliable is becaus #1 reason is the rod bolts, you put the ls rod bolts on your "pimp *** 250whp b16b" and your motors going to blow becaus of the rod bolts


why didnt you just buy a b16a if you wanted to run a 1.6 liter instead of the b16b which has a destroked crank, becaus are there even forged rods made for the b16b application??

might as well use atleast the 87 mm itr/gsr crank, and you can still tell people its a 1.6, get the crank balance to like 11k or whatever, or even better a 89mm ls crank running 85mm would do you nicely, and make way more power and rev equaly reliable assuming your going to have your b16b crank rebalanced? plus forged itr/gsr/ls rods are quite a bit easier to find.


but obvioulsey you did not come into this thread asking for opinions on the ludicris build becaus all you want is a moderate power, high revving b16b, so max bore for aftermarket sleeves(depending on company) is 87 mm, 86mm is becoming slightly more common on street b series but 85mm is the norm for what people are running on their fully built naturaly aspirated b series.


why would you want to buy sleeves just to run 83mm? why not bore the stock sleeves and run 82mm?

but once again i have to stop myself from advising you becaus all this topic should be about is bore size, so 87mm, 85mm on the street(86mm if you got ***** though)