Alright, as we all know that stock ITR belongs in DStock at SCCA SoloII competitions.

We all know that less weight is a good thing at the event. So, I was wondering, if you bought a '97 <u>w/o</u> A/C you run that in DStock, right? But, an ITR from '98,'00,'01 came with A/C standard. So, it begs the question... sinc e'97 w/o A/C runs in DStock, can I removed A/C from '01 and stay in DStock or will they put me in SM?

What about the radio? Did '97 come with radio? I know they also didn't come with rear wipers... hmm.

 

i think locally it won't be much a problem, but at national events I would think some might protest this.

 

Correction - 98's ....A/C optional
Radio standard on both 97 & 98

-Nick


[Modified by Nick248, 9:51 AM 6/12/2002]

 

According to the rules you cannot remove items from the car to make it lighter if it is attached to the car. This does not include the spare tire and floor mats.

 

that sucks... so, '97 does have an advantage when it comes to beating rulebooks.

 

They are not beating the rule book. That year model came from the manufature that way. The '97 model just has a slight advantage. If you want to reduce weight where it counts buy some light weight wheels but they must be the same size (15X6) and the offset can be +-1/4".

 

how do you like the 26mm Mugen sway bar? too much to handle on the streets? easy to control?

 

D said he likes his.
I like mine better when matched to the Mugen front 26 mm bar (esp. in fast, long sweepers).
Can't wait till the Buddy Clubs are in too.

Ask Dave how it handles with just the rear Mugen bar!


[Modified by Zygspeed, 1:24 PM 6/12/2002]

 

I like it. But have to be careful. You cannot apply the brake while making a sharp turn or you are done. It is more pronounced than stock. The rear bar reduces a lot of the understeer. With the shocks dialed in, the car is VERY quick through the corners. The last auto-x I went to I was over 5sec. faster around the course than a stock ITR. Here some times to compare.

Final times:
Me 00 ITR CSP-67.638
01 ITR G stock-73.261
Suba WRX G stock-71.687

 

Autox times are too hard to compare unless one person drives both cars back-to-back. A rear sway will not make a 5 sec improvement in times, because the car rotates pretty good as-is.

 

Never claimed just a rear bar can make this improvment but maybe the overall package. Of course driver skill is the key. That same race the guy who took 2nd in my class was hundreds of a sec. behind me and he drives a '84 RX-7. Yes, the ITR rotates very well stock, I should know, but when pushed too hard it will understeer. With a proper suspension set-up good results can come, better than stock.

 

I believe, according to the update backdate rules, you can remove the AC.

26mm bar is fine on the street

 

It's long one but this is taken from the SCCA web site rule book.

13. STOCK CATEGORY
Cars running in Stock Category must have been series produced with normal road touring equipment capable of being licensed for normal road use in the United States, and normally sold and delivered through the manufacturer's retail sales outlets in the United States. Car models not specifically listed in any Stock Category class must have been produced, and must have met the above requirements and must have been sold through normal U.S. dealerships, in quantities of at least 1,000 in a 12-month period to be entered in the Stock Category.
Except for modifications authorized below, Stock Category cars must be run as specified by the factory with only standard equipment as defined by these Rules. This requirement refers not just to individual parts, but to combinations thereof which which would have been ordered together on a specific car. Any other modifications or equipment will place the car in Street Prepared, Prepared or Modified Categories as appropriate.

Option package conversions may be performed between specific vehicles of a particular make and model, but only between configurations from within a particular model year. Such conversions must be totally complete and the resultant car must meet all requirements of this section.

The entrant has the burden of proving that his car conforms to these Rules by his owner's manual, manufacturer's shop manual, manufacturer's catalogs or other official manufacturer's documentation, which must be in the possession of the entrant at the event if ever available to the consumer from the manufacturer. At a minimum, the competitor must be in possession of the manufacturer's workshop manual. All manuals, catalogs and official documentation must be for non-competition purposes. If protested competitor possess the documentation required by this Section, but that documentation does not include sufficient information on the protested item, the burden shifts to the protesting competitor to prove the item illegal. Failure to provide appropriate manufacturer's documentation regarding vehicle specifications will result in disqualification.

(OEM = Original Equipment Manufacturer's -- ed.)

Alternate parts listed in a factory parts manual are not authorized unless their use is specifically referenced in the factory service manual or in a service bulletin. Alternate components which are normally expendable and considered replacement parts (e.g., engine and wheel bearings, seals, gaskets, etc.) may be used provided they are the same type and size as the standard parts and used in the same location. This does not include camshafts, differential covers, or ring-and-pinion sets.

Hardware items (nuts, bolts, etc.) may be replaced by similar items of unrestricted origin. These allowances are strictly to allow components to be replaced from alternate sources other than the original manufacturer. They should not be construed as an allowance to replace components with those which could be considered a 'higher performance' alternative. However,they do permit the use of safety wire, threadlocker compounds, and locking nuts. Parts available as replacements through the dealers parts department, the factory, or any other source which do not meet standard part specifications (e.g., hardness, size, etc.) are not legal in Stock Category, except as specifically provided elsewhere in these rules.

Cars listed as eligible in and prepared to the current national Showroom Stock Club Racing rules are permitted to compete in their respective Solo II Stock Classes. This does not include Showroom Stock cars with installations of post-factory "performance packages" otherwise known as "trunk kits". Neither Showroom Stock nor Solo II Stock cars are permitted to interchange preparation rules. Showroom Stock cars may use tires which are eligible under current SS rules, even if they are not eligible in Stock.

Specific vehicle classifications are located in Appendix A of these rules.

13.1 Authorized Modifications
If a modification is not specifically authorized in this or previous sections of these Rules it is not allowed. It is not permitted to use illegal parts even if they have been set to stock specifications.
Refer to Appendix H for past clarifications of these rules.

13.2 Bodywork
Accessories, gauges, indicators, lights and other appearance, comfort and convenience modifications which have no effect on performance and/or handling and do not materially reduce the weight of the car are permitted. This does not allow driver's seat substitutions or the removal of "tow hooks", a.k.a. "tie down loops". Delayed shutdown devices such as the "Turbo Timer", which perform no function while the car is in motion, are permitted. This does permit the installation of an additional mirror (e.g. a "Wink"), but does not allow the removal of the original mirror.
Hood straps or fasteners may be added.
Any fuel tank cap may be used.
Windshields may be folded (but not removed) provided the required mechanism is standard equipment.
Alternate steering wheels are allowed, provided the outside diameter is not changed by more than one inch from the standard size. Steering wheels with an integral airbag may not be changed.
Spare tires, tools and jacks may be removed.
Roll bars and roll cages may be added (see Appendix C). It is strongly recommended that they be constructed according to Section 18 of the current GCR. Roll bars may be welded. Roll cages must be bolted, not welded, into the automobile and within the driver/passenger compartment. A roll cage has more than four attachment points to the body or frame, or has bracing both fore and aft of the main hoop.
Driver restraints as outlined in Section 3.3.1 are allowed. Seats may not be cut to allow for the installation of alternate seat belts or harnesses. Passive restraint systems may not be removed. A horizontal "harness bar" may be used as part of the installation hardware for allowed driver restraints. It may serve no other purpose (e.g., structural enhancement).
Cars may add one rear trailer hitch. The resulting weight addition is allowed. The hitch may serve no other purpose. Factory tie downs may be removed to facilitate hitch installation.
Tow bar brackets may be installed but may serve no other purpose.
Any item that can not be held permanently in place by factory installed fasteners may be removed.
13.3 Tires
Any tire which is O.E.M. on a car eligible for Stock Category may be used. Non-O.E.M. tires must meet the following requirements to be eligible for use in Stock category:
The tire must not appear on the following list, which may be altered at any time by the SEB upon notification of membership.
No tire models are currently listed.

No tire models will be approved for competition during the rest of the year after April 30 of each calendar year. Each eligible tire model must meet all requirements of section 13.3 by April 30, and must continue to meet them thereafter. A tire model will normally be determined by the designation in the Tire Guide. However, any of the following changes or similar changes (as determined by the SEB) will also be considered to represent a new model for eligibility purposes, even if the designation does not change: Change of tread pattern at either full or partial tread depth; characterization by the manufacturer or distributor of a tire as "new" after April 30.
Discontinued model tires already produced will continue to be eligible for Solo II competition in Stock and Street Prepared categories. This follows years of precedence on eligibility for discontinued tire models.
If a manufacturer reintroduces a tire model which was previously discontinued, that tire will be considered a new model. Therefore, it will have to meet the rules specified in SIIR Section 13.3 including the April 30 introduction date.|

The model of tire must be listed in a current or previous two years of the Tire Guide and Tread Design Guide, or otherwise be approved by the SEB. The tire model must have Department of Transportation approval.
Within each tire model, the sizes which are available must be equally available to all competitors. Tire model variations differing from standard specification, delivered only on a limited basis, or only to selected competitors, may not be used.
No racing tire or recap (on any casing) may be used.
Each tire model must be sold in at least four diameters, with a total of at least six sizes.
Tire must fit the allowable wheels and fender wells without modification.
Each tire must have non-zero measurable tread depth (i.e., points where it is possible to obtain positive measurement values) as described in Section 3.3.D. Tires may not have cord visible at any time during competition.
13.4 Wheels
Any type wheel may be used provided it complies with the following: it is the same width and diameter as standard, and as installed (including wheel spacers if applicable) it does not have an offset more than +/- 0.25 inch from a standard wheel for the car. The resultant change in track dimensions is allowed. Vehicles originally equipped only with 12 inch diameter wheels, may use 13 inch diameter wheels of the same width as standard and offset within +/- 0.25 inch of standard.
Wheel spacers are permitted, provided the resultant combination complies with the offset requirements of this section. Wheel studs lug nuts, and/or bolt length may be changed.

Vehicles equipped with rims having metric specifications may use alternate rims as determined by using the following procedure.

Diameter: converting the metric measurement to inches and using the nearest smaller inch diameter rim.
Width: converting the metric measurement to inches and using the nearest smaller 1/2-inch width rim. Offset and track must still comply with the requirements of this section.

13.5 Shock Absorbers
The make of shock absorber may be substituted providing that the number, type, (e.g., tube, lever, etc.) system of attachment and attachment points are not altered. Substituted shock absorbers may provide no more than two external damping adjustments. Remote reservoirs are permitted and holes may be drilled for bolts with which to mount the reservoirs, but bodywork may not be additionally cut or drilled to provide for the routing of lines or the positioning of the reservoirs. A hole may be added through the bodywork to route the line from the reservoir to the shock absorber body. Such holes may serve no other purpose.
The mounting hardware shall be the original type. To facilitate the installation of commonly available aftermarket shock absorbers, struts, or strut inserts whose shaft is larger than the center hole of an upper mount assembly, that hole may be enlarged by the minimum amount necessary to accommodate the shock shaft size, provided the following restrictions are met:
(1) the enlarged hole must remain concentric with that of the original configuration;
(2) the enlargement of the hole does not require modification of a bearing (as opposed to a washer, plate, or sleeve);
(3) neither the hole enlargement nor the location of the shock shaft changes any alignment parameter.
Bump stops installed externally and concentric with the shaft of a shock absorber may be drilled out to fit larger-diameter shock shafts. Bump Stops with similar characteristics to those of the original may be substituted for the purpose of installing aftermarket shock absorbers. See Section 13.5.G.
The use of any shock absorber bushing material, including metal, is permitted. This does not permit the use of an offset shock absorber bushing.
The interchange of gas and hydraulic shock absorbers is permitted. Electronically controlled shocks may not be used on vehicles not originally equipped with such units. Vehicles originally equipped with electronically controlled shocks may use non-electronically controlled alternatives subject to all requirements of 13.5.
Shock absorbers with adjustable spring perches which have been welded in the stock position on the shock absorber are permitted.
The dimensional characteristics of the shock and relative placement of the spring must remain as stock. If the spring perch on an aftermarket shock/strut is a small amount (e.g. 1/4") lower than the standard part, but the shock/strut otherwise complies with the requirements of this Section, a shim may be added to the spring perch to raise the spring base to the correct height. This shim must be permanently attached to the perch.
Suspension geometry and range of travel may not be altered. A suspension bump stop is considered to be performing the function of a spring. The distance to the initial point of contact with a bump stop may not be reduced, though the bump stop may be shortened for the purpose of installing aftermarket shock absorbers.
The bushing attaching the end of the strut to the body or frame on a strut type suspension is a suspension bushing, not a shock absorber bushing. Suspension bushings, including but not limited to those which carry the weight of the car and determine ride height, may not be replaced with bushings of a different material or dimension.
Non standard electronically controlled active shocks are not allowed.
A hole may be added in an interior body panel to provide access to the adjustment mechanism on an allowed shock absorber. This hole may serve no other purpose.
13.6 Brakes
The make and material of brake linings may be changed.
Substitution of clutch and brake hydraulic lines with solid metal or braided metal is allowed on all cars manufactured before model year 1992.
Alternate brake bleeder fittings such as "Speedbleeders" are permitted They may serve no other purpose.
13.7 Anti Roll (Sway) Bars
Front anti-roll (sway) bars:

Substitution, addition or removal of any front anti-roll bars is permitted.
Substitution, addition or removal of anti-roll bars may serve no other purpose than that of an anti-roll bar.
The use of any bushing material is permitted.
No modification to the body, frame or other components to accommodate anti-roll bar addition or substitution is allowed, except for the drilling of holes for mounting bolts. Non-standard lateral members which connect between the brackets for the bar are not permitted.
Rear anti-roll (sway) bars:

May not be removed, replaced, or modified in any way.
13.8 Suspension
Standard, as defined herein, suspension springs must be used. They may not be cut, shortened or collapsed. Cars with swing axle suspension may be lowered sufficiently to achieve no more than two degrees of negative camber at rest, and may use a camber compensator.
Both the front and rear suspension may be adjusted through their designed range of adjustment by use of factory adjustment arrangements or by taking advantage of inherent manufacturing tolerances. However, no suspension part may be modified for the purpose of adjustment unless such modification is specifically authorized by the factory shop manual for non-competition purposes.

Replacement control arms for vehicles having integral bushing/arm assemblies must be standard factory parts as per Sections 12.4 and 13.0. This encompasses both alignment and ride height parameters, if such adjustments are provided by the stock components and specified by the factory as normal methods of adjustment.

If authorized by the manufacturer, the use of shims, special bolts, removal of material to enlarge mounting holes, and similar methods are allowed and the resulting alignment settings are permitted even if outside the normal specification or range of specifications recommended by the manufacturer. If enlarging mounting holes is specifically authorized but no material removal limits are specified, material removal is restricted to the amount necessary to achieve the maximum factory alignment specification.

13.9 Electrical System
The make of spark plugs, points, ignition coil and high tension wires is unrestricted including spark plug wires having an in-line capacitor .
On cars made prior to January 1, 1968, any ignition system using a standard distributor without modification may be used.
Ignition settings may not be adjusted outside factory specifications.
No changes are permitted to electronic engine management systems or their programming.
13.10 Engine and Drive Train
The engine air filter element may be removed or replaced. A replacement element which is taller than standard may not be used to hold the air cleaner cover open. No other components of the air induction system may be removed, replaced or modified.
Engines may be rebored to the manufacturer's first standard overbore, not to exceed 0.020". Sleeving is allowed to repair to the standard bore. Only OEM-type standard or first overbore pistons of the same configuration and of the same or greater weights are permitted. No interchange between cast and forged pistons is allowed.
Rotating and reciprocating parts may not be balanced.
Port matching is not allowed.
Any part of the exhaust system beyond (downstream from) the header/manifold or catalytic converter, if so equipped, may be substituted provided the system meets the requirements of 3.5. Stainless steel heat exchangers are permitted only if the physical dimensions and configuration remain unchanged. Modifications of any type, including additions to or removal of, the catalytic converters, thermal reactors, or any other pollution control devices in the exhaust system are not allowed and the system must be operable. Replacement catalytic converters must be OEM if the vehicle has not exceeded the 5-year/50,000 mile warranty period as mandated by the EPA. Converters must be of the same type and size and used in the same location as the original equipment converter(s). This does not allow for a high performance unit. If the vehicle has exceeded the 5 year/50,000 mile warranty period, replacement catalytic converters must be OEM-type as per Section 13.
Any oil filter may be added if not originally equipped. Canister-type oil filters may be replaced with a spin-on type filter using a minimum amount of hardware and connecting lines.
The installation of water expansion tanks is allowed. The installation of oil catch tanks is allowed provided the PCV system is not altered.
A scattershield may be added. This does not permit bell housing substitutions.
Thermostats may be added or substituted. A thermostat is a device which controls the passage of water.
Silicone replacement hoses are permitted as alternate components, provided they meet the requirements of section 13.0 with regard to size, shape, location, and performance equivalence.
A device for locking out reverse gear may be used.
Limited-slip differential, transmission and differential ratios, clutch mechanisms, and carburetion, fuel injection or supercharger induction systems must be standard as herein defined.
Any oil or grease, including synthetic, is permitted.
Valve seats and guides in older engines originally designed for leaded fuel may be only substituted with alternate components if the dimensions of are the same as those of the standard components.

 

[Quote]Option package conversions may be performed between specific vehicles of a particular make and model, but only between configurations from within a particular model year. Such conversions must be totally complete and the resultant car must meet all requirements of this section. [/Qutoe]

Again, you must read the update back rules.... I believe that optional equipment may be removed from newer model years.

 

I don't believe A/C makes that big of a difference. If I don't recall, David Fauth has A/C in his R and he mopped us all up at Nats! It's 90% driver, 10% car, so unless you've got the driver piece licked there's no need to remove the A/C for autocrossing IMO.

 

but only between configurations from within a particular model year.

This statement answers your question. No backdating. A/c was optional for the '97&'98 ITR. The '00&'01 ITR have NO optional equipment available.

 

I understand where you are coming from but....

Update/Backdate is a seperate section of rules. I'm not 100% they apply to Stock categories. I will check on that tonight. I guess the question is which section of the rules has precedence.

Another thing that I wonder about, and could use some clarification on, is the fact that a SCCA Showroom Stock Club Racing car (road racing) can be used in Solo II Stock category as long as there is no "trunk kit" used. I am 90% sure that the Club Racing rules allow for the removal of the radio and A/C. This may be another way to "get away with it"

CG

 

This is from the SCCA Street Prepared section.

14.1 Authorized Modifications
All Allowable modifications permitted in Stock Category are allowed.
Street Prepared vehicles may only be modified in excess of Stock Category rules in the following ways. Any modification not specifically authorized by the Stock Category or Street Prepared rules is prohibited. No unauthorized modifications are permitted in order to accommodate authorized modifications (i.e., non-stock hood scoops or holes necessary for carburetor clearance). Structural modifications, such as the addition of members known as "jacking rails", are not permitted unless specifically authorized herein.
Equipment and/or specifications may be exchanged between different years and models of a vehicle if
(a) the item is standard on the year/model from which it was taken,
(b) the years/models are listed on the same line of Appendix A (Street Prepared Classes).
The updated/backdated part or the part to which it is to be attached may not be altered, modified, machined or otherwise changed to facilitate the updating/backdating allowance. The updating and/or backdating of engines, transmissions or transaxles must be done as a unit; component parts of these units may not be interchanged. [B]Cars not listed in the Street Prepared sections of Appendix A may not be updated/backdated until approved by the SEB and published in SportsCar magazine.[B/]
Alternate computer control modules may be used whenever an equivalent change to the conventional system is allowed. For example, alternate computer module control of ignition settings or fuel injection is allowed. Direct turbocharger boost control by alternate computer control is not, since there is no equivalent mechanical allowance.
Air conditioning systems may be removed in whole or in part. This rule should not be interpreted to allow modification of the heater system.

 

I'll check my rulebook tonight....

Clayton - who wishes he could run Stock instead of D Mod

 

Clayton I am awaiting you findings but I do agree with you that update/backdate ruing is specficall designed for outside of the model year hence the name.

By the rules as I understand them A/C CAN come out and even a 00/01 ITR Intake Cam can be put in a 97 or 98

 

If you guys look at my last post it clearly states under Street Prepared that you can update/backdate between your model car. It does not state this under the Stock rules. Also, there is no seperate section about updating/backdating. It is just specified under the street prepared class which also means the remaining less strict classes can also update/backdate (Prepared and Modified classes).

 

If you don't see in the stock rules where it says that you can update/backdate, then you can't.

And in stock class, you can't. If you take the rear wiper off of a 01 ITR because the 97 ITR didn't have it, you can and will get protrested at a large event if you finish high enough. And you also can't use the 00-01 cam on the 97-98 cars in the stock class.

And think about it--if you could update/backdate in stock classes, then folks in AS would all be driving 84 Corvettes with 96 LT4 motors, right?

The only thing you can do in a stock class is take off/add options that came on *that* model year of car. So, if a 98 ITR had optional a/c, then you can take it off or leave it on. In 00, you must run the a/c because you had no choice in the matter.

 

Okay folks.... per the rules there is no update/backdate for Solo II stock categories...

However, regarding the removal A/C and Radios. The rules state that a car prepared to SCCA Showroom Stock specs is eligible as long as it does not use a "trunk kit". The Showroom Stock rules state that the A/C and Radio MAY be removed.

The issue is that an ITR does not have a Showroom Stock class

A GSR, however, does - Showroom Stock B

So you can't remove the A/C for D-Stock on a 98+ ITR

 

I'm also sure if you are going to say that your car is a Showroom Stock car then the car will have to follow all of the Showroom stock guidlines. For example safety, roll cage, fire extinguisher system, window net, battery kill switch, etc. etc.

 

Yes that is true... so the weight savings would probably go the other direction

A cage, however, would be an advantage IMHO....

What Solo II class is the GSR in?