Too much boost on stock 4th gen internals
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From: pilot grove, MO, U.S.A
Too much boost on stock 4th gen internals
i would like to know how much boost a F22a can hold on stock internals, i have researched differcent threads and i get anywhere from 220-350, i am very confused, and i leaning to about 250 or so, once i boost my f22a i would like to know whether i should just replace the pistons and ringlands and be okay or should i just get forged pistons
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From: Raleigh, NC
Re: Too much boost on stock 4th gen internals (skimNrace)
Nice reply skimNrace, that was chock full of information.
It depends on alot of things. First lets start with the mileage of the motor, how much do you have?
I am confused when you are relating boost to "anywhere from 220-350". Are you meaning the HP output?
A higher mileage engine will have parts that are more worn and more likely to give out. Imagine hopping grandpa up on growth hormone for a few months then having him max out at a squat, hell probably crap out his guts....because his parts are worn.
Now, skimNrace does have a good point, just no information to back it up. A boosted engine must have the right air/fuel ratio to make power. The stock PC doesn't supply enough fuel as a turbo ads air to the engine. Additionally retarding the ignition timing is need to cope with the increased cylinder pressure to prevent pre-ignition, or two explosions inside the chamber colliding out of sync and causing an internal part to preemptively fail. A with a good calibration of the air to fuel mixture and spark retarding as boost increases, a worn engine can survive higher cylinder pressures. But at this point you start walking the line, because if you tune too accurately, a bad tank of gas could ruin it all for you. So its best to tune a street car with flexibility.
Switching the pistons is a good idea if you want to start running in excess of 8 lbs of boost. If you have the cash, go for it, if not then boost less and save for a engine rebuild that will allow you to upgrade.
It depends on alot of things. First lets start with the mileage of the motor, how much do you have?
I am confused when you are relating boost to "anywhere from 220-350". Are you meaning the HP output?
A higher mileage engine will have parts that are more worn and more likely to give out. Imagine hopping grandpa up on growth hormone for a few months then having him max out at a squat, hell probably crap out his guts....because his parts are worn.
Now, skimNrace does have a good point, just no information to back it up. A boosted engine must have the right air/fuel ratio to make power. The stock PC doesn't supply enough fuel as a turbo ads air to the engine. Additionally retarding the ignition timing is need to cope with the increased cylinder pressure to prevent pre-ignition, or two explosions inside the chamber colliding out of sync and causing an internal part to preemptively fail. A with a good calibration of the air to fuel mixture and spark retarding as boost increases, a worn engine can survive higher cylinder pressures. But at this point you start walking the line, because if you tune too accurately, a bad tank of gas could ruin it all for you. So its best to tune a street car with flexibility.
Switching the pistons is a good idea if you want to start running in excess of 8 lbs of boost. If you have the cash, go for it, if not then boost less and save for a engine rebuild that will allow you to upgrade.
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From: O town, Fl, USA
Re: Too much boost on stock 4th gen internals (jabontke)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jabontke »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nice reply skimNrace, that was chock full of information.
.</TD></TR></TABLE>
but exactly the truth, u can blow up a car on 6 psi, and you can run an incredible tune on 11 psi and not do a bit of damage, i wouldnt go over 12 psi though. ive seen some run up to 20 psi on stock internals with a good tuner, but it blew up after almost a year.
tuning is what matters
do you know what blows a motor
used turbos
small turbos (people wnat more power out of a small turbo)
bad tunes
used turbos
maintenence issues
.</TD></TR></TABLE>
but exactly the truth, u can blow up a car on 6 psi, and you can run an incredible tune on 11 psi and not do a bit of damage, i wouldnt go over 12 psi though. ive seen some run up to 20 psi on stock internals with a good tuner, but it blew up after almost a year.
tuning is what matters
do you know what blows a motor
used turbos
small turbos (people wnat more power out of a small turbo)
bad tunes
used turbos
maintenence issues
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From: waukegan, il, USA
Re: Too much boost on stock 4th gen internals (JDM_Acccord)
I'm curious about boosting my 4th gen as well. I understand the concepts behind it, and will be able to get a good tune. I want to do it on the cheap though, whats the problem with a used turbo? I am also wondering about post-boost gas mileage, assuming i do a light setup (5lbs or so). Anyone have experience with something like that? (I am thoroughly enjoying my gas mileage..420+ per tank 
).
).
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From: Reppin The 905
Re: (one power)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zigg_1211 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i would like to know whether i should just replace the pistons and ringlands and be okay or should i just get forged pistons</TD></TR></TABLE>
The ringlands ARE the gooves in the piston. The ringlands cant be changed. best bet is to buy forged pistions that are lower compression, and you will have a happy boosted motor.
The ringlands ARE the gooves in the piston. The ringlands cant be changed. best bet is to buy forged pistions that are lower compression, and you will have a happy boosted motor.
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From: In the sticks, Ny, US
I heard that with higher compression pistions you will spool up the turbo qiucker, but you have to have an amazing tune. Correct me if im wrong but with lower compression you have a larger margin of error in the tuning aspect but with higer compression pistions its the opposite.
If your changing the pistions id buy a set of main and rod bearings. And also hone your block, especially when getting new pistions and rings.
-Eric
If your changing the pistions id buy a set of main and rod bearings. And also hone your block, especially when getting new pistions and rings.
-Eric
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From: Raleigh, NC
Re: (Alpinestar03)
If I remember correctly the F322B has a 8.8:1 compression ratio. Its low and is more forgiving of bad gas an acrappy tuning as compared to higher compression motors.
Used turbos, if not inspected can perform crappy. A wastegate that that leaks from cracks could leak to high rpm boost creep or spikes, leaning out an engine. I think you can buy a used turbo, but consult with a turbocharger guide for checking for worn parts that might need replacement. I buy used and rebuild when needed.
Smallpox33 - "f22b2 is the worst engine honda has ever made the f22a6 is 145 hp."
I am curious as to why you think this? I am not challenging you, I just don't know much about the f22a6. Please fill us in on what you mean.
YossarianLives! - As for the gas mileage, that depends on your trans gearing and the tune on the engine. If your cruising down the freeway and not not boosting much, your gas milaeage will change little. This is assuming that you have a ECU that is tuned or a rising rate fuel pressure regulator that a "adds" fuel under boosted conditions. I used to run a haltec setup and used a wideband A/F meter to tune my car to gain 4 MPG on the freeway. In town you car will be boosting and using more fuel (not too much with 5 psi) since the traffic is stop and go. If anything, the in town MPG will be affected most. MPG also depends on how much of a lead foot you have too.
Alpinestar03 - Higher compression will not affect the spool, it's not going to be something you will notice. The spool is best affected by the a/r ratio of the turbo and if the turbo is a ball bearing unit.
Used turbos, if not inspected can perform crappy. A wastegate that that leaks from cracks could leak to high rpm boost creep or spikes, leaning out an engine. I think you can buy a used turbo, but consult with a turbocharger guide for checking for worn parts that might need replacement. I buy used and rebuild when needed.
Smallpox33 - "f22b2 is the worst engine honda has ever made the f22a6 is 145 hp."
I am curious as to why you think this? I am not challenging you, I just don't know much about the f22a6. Please fill us in on what you mean.
YossarianLives! - As for the gas mileage, that depends on your trans gearing and the tune on the engine. If your cruising down the freeway and not not boosting much, your gas milaeage will change little. This is assuming that you have a ECU that is tuned or a rising rate fuel pressure regulator that a "adds" fuel under boosted conditions. I used to run a haltec setup and used a wideband A/F meter to tune my car to gain 4 MPG on the freeway. In town you car will be boosting and using more fuel (not too much with 5 psi) since the traffic is stop and go. If anything, the in town MPG will be affected most. MPG also depends on how much of a lead foot you have too.
Alpinestar03 - Higher compression will not affect the spool, it's not going to be something you will notice. The spool is best affected by the a/r ratio of the turbo and if the turbo is a ball bearing unit.
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From: O town, Fl, USA
Re: (jabontke)
yes thats what i was going to say about used turbos
ok the f22b1 and the f22a heads were flow tested, the f22a head is one of the most free flowing heads hondas ever made (k series ftw) anyways i have charts where the cfm was tested on both heads and the f22a1 was much better, the vtec on their was an economy vtec not performance oriented like the b and h series. Even the d series vtec was more performance oriented.
the f22b1 is a horrible vtec engine when the f22a6 has the same power an its a nonvtec sohc.
the f22b2 has even less power and a horrible head design. the f22a head is great for boost.
ok the f22b1 and the f22a heads were flow tested, the f22a head is one of the most free flowing heads hondas ever made (k series ftw) anyways i have charts where the cfm was tested on both heads and the f22a1 was much better, the vtec on their was an economy vtec not performance oriented like the b and h series. Even the d series vtec was more performance oriented.
the f22b1 is a horrible vtec engine when the f22a6 has the same power an its a nonvtec sohc.
the f22b2 has even less power and a horrible head design. the f22a head is great for boost.
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From: USA
Re: (one power)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by one power »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">f22a is not turbo engine 300hp would break the danm thing what ever to iron sleeves **** only has 130 hp on an f22b2</TD></TR></TABLE>
... is this some new dialect of english.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Smallpox33 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yes thats what i was going to say about used turbos
ok the f22b1 and the f22a heads were flow tested, the f22a head is one of the most free flowing heads hondas ever made (k series ftw) anyways i have charts where the cfm was tested on both heads and the f22a1 was much better, the vtec on their was an economy vtec not performance oriented like the b and h series. Even the d series vtec was more performance oriented.
the f22b1 is a horrible vtec engine when the f22a6 has the same power an its a nonvtec sohc.
the f22b2 has even less power and a horrible head design. the f22a head is great for boost.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
so horrible I managed 335whp out of a totally stock valve cover to pan f22b1 on very mild amount of boost.
I love how people can make conclusion that is it such a bad engine based on this alone... it only won a spot on the Ward's 10 Best Engines List in 1995 and 1996. I would not hardly call it a horrible engine... just not what you prefer for the afore mentioned reasons. Of course it is not a performance vtec, accords were not designed to be sports cars.
I am interested to see these flow sheets from your testing of all these heads, specifically interested in seeing the f22a1 head (125hp/ 137 ft. lbs) vs the f22b1. I do agree the f22b1 head flows less than the f22a6 head but it still makes the power, it just does it with less. Also check your numbers agian, the f22a6 is 140hp/ 142 ft lbs vs the f22b1 which is 145hp/ 147ft. lbs... not much difference but they are not the same output.
I know the f22a6 is a better flowing head but honestly I am very suprised to see the a1 and a4 are being considered better than a b1 here. I have seen some flow numbers on these myself and I did not think that was the case.
Modified by twkdCD595 at 9:20 AM 6/11/2007
... is this some new dialect of english.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Smallpox33 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yes thats what i was going to say about used turbos
ok the f22b1 and the f22a heads were flow tested, the f22a head is one of the most free flowing heads hondas ever made (k series ftw) anyways i have charts where the cfm was tested on both heads and the f22a1 was much better, the vtec on their was an economy vtec not performance oriented like the b and h series. Even the d series vtec was more performance oriented.
the f22b1 is a horrible vtec engine when the f22a6 has the same power an its a nonvtec sohc.
the f22b2 has even less power and a horrible head design. the f22a head is great for boost.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
so horrible I managed 335whp out of a totally stock valve cover to pan f22b1 on very mild amount of boost.
I love how people can make conclusion that is it such a bad engine based on this alone... it only won a spot on the Ward's 10 Best Engines List in 1995 and 1996. I would not hardly call it a horrible engine... just not what you prefer for the afore mentioned reasons. Of course it is not a performance vtec, accords were not designed to be sports cars.I am interested to see these flow sheets from your testing of all these heads, specifically interested in seeing the f22a1 head (125hp/ 137 ft. lbs) vs the f22b1. I do agree the f22b1 head flows less than the f22a6 head but it still makes the power, it just does it with less. Also check your numbers agian, the f22a6 is 140hp/ 142 ft lbs vs the f22b1 which is 145hp/ 147ft. lbs... not much difference but they are not the same output.
I know the f22a6 is a better flowing head but honestly I am very suprised to see the a1 and a4 are being considered better than a b1 here. I have seen some flow numbers on these myself and I did not think that was the case.
Modified by twkdCD595 at 9:20 AM 6/11/2007
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From: USA
Re: Too much boost on stock 4th gen internals (zigg_1211)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zigg_1211 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i would like to know how much boost a F22a can hold on stock internals, i have researched differcent threads and i get anywhere from 220-350, i am very confused, and i leaning to about 250 or so, once i boost my f22a i would like to know whether i should just replace the pistons and ringlands and be okay or should i just get forged pistons</TD></TR></TABLE>
For 250 whp I personally would not change pistons (just my 2 cents), given the condition of the motor is good. Compression/ leakdown tests would be helpful in evaluating your motor.
Then once you establish it is in good condition and you piece together a decent turbo kit... focus on quality fuel management and good tuning. As said above tuning can make or break a setup at any power level. It is really all about the tuning once you get done with putting the parts on, a good tune can make more power while still being quite reliable.
For 250 whp I personally would not change pistons (just my 2 cents), given the condition of the motor is good. Compression/ leakdown tests would be helpful in evaluating your motor.
Then once you establish it is in good condition and you piece together a decent turbo kit... focus on quality fuel management and good tuning. As said above tuning can make or break a setup at any power level. It is really all about the tuning once you get done with putting the parts on, a good tune can make more power while still being quite reliable.
Re: (Smallpox33)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Smallpox33 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">f22b2 is the worst engine honda has evermade the f22a6 is 145 hp.
you can safely put down 240 whp 240 whtq from an f22a</TD></TR></TABLE>
How is f22b2 the worst ever lol? That statement makes 0 sense.
you can safely put down 240 whp 240 whtq from an f22a</TD></TR></TABLE>
How is f22b2 the worst ever lol? That statement makes 0 sense.
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From: Pilot Grove, MO, U.S.A
Re: (TheMuffinMan)
i am gonna use a 16g turbo ( already have it, it was free) the manifold was off of and piping is off of a gs-t eclipse, i am gonna have it tuned in KC ( tuner is phenomenal) gettin bigger injectors, gonna have my head polished, and intake polished, and i am buying a master rebuild kit, new main and rod bearings, and new stock pistons, all for 400 bucks, i know an old guy who polishes stuff dirt cheap, i mean cheap, 3 inch exhaust straight, and havent decided on a muffler, i just want at least 240 or 250 out of 7 or 8 psi
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From: Raleigh, NC
Re: (zigg_1311)
twkdCD595 - I agree that the difference between the heads/engines is minimal. My question is where are these engines making their most torque and at what RPM. I bet it is very similar. IF you all motor, a better flowing head will make a difference, but if your using a turbo, that will push the air through the head, making the DOHC not an advantage, but more of an expense.
zigg_1311c - I think the head polishing would not benefit you much with a turbo. Since your intake/head are not having to suck the air in, the polish will not be a noticeable in the long run with th e turbo. I would save the cash and focus on the turbo setup. Maybe invent that into a good set of rod and main bolts or forged pistons.
I like the ambition you have, stick with it and keep learning. If I were you, I would turn my attention to understanding how A/R ratios affect the turbo spool time and the power band plus start understanding how to use compressor maps to match impeller trims and housings for the power you want. Turbo setup is crucial to getting the most out of your engine. Getting "240 or 250 out of 7 or 8 psi" will be much easier with a properly setup turbo. The GSM turbo will work, but might not give you the power you need when you want it and where you want it.
zigg_1311c - I think the head polishing would not benefit you much with a turbo. Since your intake/head are not having to suck the air in, the polish will not be a noticeable in the long run with th e turbo. I would save the cash and focus on the turbo setup. Maybe invent that into a good set of rod and main bolts or forged pistons.
I like the ambition you have, stick with it and keep learning. If I were you, I would turn my attention to understanding how A/R ratios affect the turbo spool time and the power band plus start understanding how to use compressor maps to match impeller trims and housings for the power you want. Turbo setup is crucial to getting the most out of your engine. Getting "240 or 250 out of 7 or 8 psi" will be much easier with a properly setup turbo. The GSM turbo will work, but might not give you the power you need when you want it and where you want it.
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From: Pilot Grove, MO, U.S.A
Re: (jabontke)
i can get my stuff polished pretty cheap, so i am just gonna do it, it has a t3/t4 16g turbo garrett, thats a pretty good turbo, and i am gonna try to get a greddy front mount, cus the side mount intercooler is ****, put sequential blow valves, and i still have the wastegates for it too
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