Seems like there is a rumor going around that i need to re torque me studs.

I have 70 miles on the rebuild b18c1 motor.

Now should i re torque the head studs and if i do, do i have to replace the head gasket? Any info will be appreciated.

 

Better safe than sorry no?
and no on the headgasket...

 

thanks

 

Ya, you dont need to change the headgasket because your not loosening the studs and taking the head off, your just re-torquing them.


Check these out..

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=453880

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1128275

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=427010

 

I'm not sure I agree with this. If this is needed, why doesn't ARP recommend this?

 

they do

 

Can you make me a sword?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Combustion Contraption &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Can you make me a sword?</TD></TR></TABLE>

i want one too...ill come retorque your studs for you...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mitsuman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ya, you dont need to change the headgasket because your not loosening the studs and taking the head off, your just re-torquing them.


Check these out..

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=453880

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1128275

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=427010</TD></TR></TABLE>


thanks looks like the rumor was true

 

Dragging this back out to post some info that I received from ARP.

Here is correspondence I had with a ARP representative regarding the installation of ARP head studs.

Here is the email I sent to ARP;

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jabinya &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Hello,
I just purchased a head stud kit #208-4302 for my engine build and I
have some questions regarding installation. I was recommended to do so
because of the generalized instructions that come with the kit. From
what I have researched the instructions are not engine specific.

Application - B18A/B B20 engine

1. - Do you apply the moly lube to both ends of the stud? Block threads

and head nut threads?

2. - What is the proper procedure for installing studs on my engine?

From what I understand the studs are not to have any load on them from

the block, only the nuts.

ARP suggests that the studs be threaded into the block hand tight.

Other suggestions I have read:
- Tighten the studs to 10-15 ft lbs
- Thread the studs in till they bottom out then back them out a 1/4
turn.

3. - Since these will be used on a aluminum block and aluminum head,
what are the effects of thermal expansion on torque values?

4. - What is the final torque value I should apply on my studs using a
OEM Honda three layer steel head gasket and moly lube as the thread
lubricant?

ARP instructions say 65 ft lbs.

The ARP website states "The friction factor changes from one
application to the next. That is, the friction is at its highest value
when the fastener is first tightened. Each additional time the fastener

is torqued and loosened, this value gets smaller. Eventually the
friction levels out and becomes constant for all following repetitions.

Therefore, new fasteners should be tightened and loosened through
several cycles before applying final torque. The number of times
depends on the lubricant. For all situations where ARP lubricants are
used, five cycles are required before final torquing."

Other suggestions I have read:
- Torque to 70, or 75, or 80, or 85 ft lbs.
- Re torque after 10 driving cycles. Would re torquing destroy the seal

that the head gasket makes?

Any info that you may give me regarding these questions will be greatly

appreciated. Since this is such a important part of my engine assembly,

I want to have the correct information before installation.

Thanks so much, </TD></TR></TABLE>

Here is the response I received from a ARP rep;

Excuse the CAPS, this is how the email was sent to me.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ARP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


HELLO,

1. YES BOTH ENDS OF THE STUD. I BELIVE THAT IN THE HONDAS NONE OF THE
STUDS GO INTO A WATER JACKET, THEREFOR BOTH ENDS WOULD RECEIVE MOLY
LUBE. IF THE STUD WENT INTO A WATER JACKET THEN IT WOULD NEED SEALANT
ON
THE BLOCK END AND MOLY ON THE FINE THREAD.
2. THE STUDS ARE INSTALLED HAND TIGHT INTO THE BLOCK WITH FULL THREAD
ENGAGEMENT. THERE IS NO PRE-LOAD ON THE STUD ITSELF.
3. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN EXPANSION BECAUSE YOU HAVE ALUMINUM HEAD
AND BLOCK. THE ONLY TIME IT WOULD MATTER IS IF YOU HAVE AN ALUM HEAD
AND
IRON BLOCK.
4 THE FIANL TORQUE WOULD BE 70 FT LBS W/ ARP MOLY LUBE.
5. THE STUDS SHOLUD BE CYCLED 3-5 TIMES BEFORE ENGINE START, THEN A
RETORQUE AFTER A HEAT CYLCE, ALLWAYS TO 70 FT LBS.

ALSO DON'T FORGET TO CHASE THE THREADS IN THE BLOCK BEFORE YOU INSTALL
THE STUDS. THIS IS DONE TO GAIN FULL THREAD ENGAEGMENT.


PAUL S. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Finally I have a definitive answer to my questions and am going to be intalling the head studs tonight.

Hope this helps anyone that had any doubts!

 

5. THE STUDS SHOLUD BE CYCLED 3-5 TIMES BEFORE ENGINE START, THEN A
RETORQUE AFTER A HEAT CYLCE, ALLWAYS TO 70 FT LBS.

what is a cycle? I would imagine they mean tightened/loosened 3-4 times?

good info

 

I think that a "cycle" is torquing to final torque in three steps(example; 20-50-70), then loosening in steps. A full cycle. Then do that 3-5 more times.

 

wouldnt that mess up the head gasket seal?

 

yea probably would. but idunno. they recommend it and i have never done that before in my life. i have always lubed the bolts up, made them hand tight, torqued um down in 3 steps. started drove around for 70-100miles then retorque to 70 is all i do. works just fine that way.

 

that sounds like what ill probably do.

 

another thing i thought of, after u torque them down and the lube goes away as a result of driving around. when you try to "retorque" them theres a massive amount of friction which would cause inaccurate readings. . . wouldn't it?

i feel it would be like trying to torque down a head thats already been taken care of. . . or trying to tighten a bolt thats already been tightened.

couldnt an uneven torque also cause the head/block to end up warping?

these are just some thoughts i came up with after reading this. i have headstuds too so dont get me wrong, but ive also had these for sometime and took them to like 75 f/lbs let it sit for a few hours, went back and re checked them again, and did the same for about a day. ( however i bought these used)

 

another thing i thought of, honda torque specs for gsr's are like 63 (?) where as arp recommends 75 (?) and if the arp's back off about 10lbs, doesnt that make the final tq numbers 65 (?) which is still higher than hondas recommendation\\

okay the post says 70, but mine are at 75. . . but do you guys get what im saying?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by patrick4588 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">wouldnt that mess up the head gasket seal?</TD></TR></TABLE>

shouldnt mess up anything, as the headgakset has not been heat cycled yet, so tqing and untqing and retqing should be fine, prior to running the motor.

however, when u check the tq on the studs after u heat cycle the motor, what i do is jsut go around and tighten all of them, i dont loosen them and then tighten them. not sure if thats how its suppose to be done though, but i believe it is

 

i used a final torque of 65 ft/lb on my b18c because that's what was written on the instruction sheet, does this mean i have to go up to 70 ft/lb? i'm a bit wary of going that much higher than the oem spec of 63 ft/lb

 

Your guys are thinking about this way too much. For the most part, ARP is smarter than you, and has done the research so you dont have to. If the manufacturer of a part tells you to install it a certain way, DO IT. If you dont, and it fails ,not only is it your fault, but it will not be warrantied.

hondapow3r, the recomended torque for the ARP's is higher due to the fact that it is a stud and nut design as compared to an OE design, which is just a bolt, which results in different clamping forces. Youre also TQ'ing ARP's with their moly lube, if you were to substitute the moly lube with motor oil like you do with the OE stuff, the TQ value would change as well.

Hope this helps with some of your questions.

 

that makes sense, thanks

 

Here is a another issue I just thought of; Should I retorque after a driving heat cycle when the motor has completely cooled down or immediately after I shut off the engine?

 

is this only for the arp studs? or do this apply to the eagle studs too?

 

Well, I just got done installing the head. I cycled the bolts to final torque in three steps, 20, 40, 70. Then I loosened them in 1/3 turn steps till they were completely loose. I repeated that process 4 more times. Whew! I'm in pretty good shape, but doing this in 105 degree weather took its toll on me. By the end of the 5th cycle, the blood vessels in my head were pounding like a Kicker subwoofer. Felt like I was gonna pass out.

One thing I did notice was that after I loosened the nuts, the studs backed out too. So before I started to torque them down again I put the socket on the nut to hold it still and inserted a allen wrench inside the socket to hand tighten the stud. I had to do this every time I loosened the nuts.

Going to go back out after it cools down a bit and check to see if the torque has relaxed any.

I filmed the process and am going to make a short vid of it and put it up on YouTube if anybody wants to see how to install these.

 

yeah, I like to see how its done