I was looking at the sleeves and the water jaket. It seems to have a similar bore all the way down into the middle of sleeves.

SO I was thinking.... Couldn't you just take a Block gaurd that lightly tap it all the way down to the middle of the sleeves? Then have another (high flow mind you) block gaurd at the top.

Just like "posting" it would hold the sleeves in the middle, and then have the stability with the second gaurd at the top.

Do you think it work?

And plez people, don't post " ahhh just sleeve the ****** ! " If you post, please give a valid response.

 

How would you keep the "center" blockguard from moving around?

Sonny

 

Well what keep's the top block gaurd from moving around?

I'm sure there's a way. An epoxy mix some how? I know JUN "sleeved" engine's with just an epoxy filling part's of the water jacket.

 

hey bryson check your PM

 

I have heard of people "slip" fitting the blockguard in, but most people weld them in, no?

I think I would just stick with the block posts, man. Unless the area around the cylinder is EXACTLY the same from top to middle, you're gonna have problems. You may shave the blockguard to get it to pass through the top only to find it too loose or too tight in the middle.

I think the Endyn method is actually very simple and effective. I'm gonna have my machine shop do it for me based on the info that Larry has given me. He uses 3/8" threaded aluminum "studs". I'm going to buy a long aluminum rod and my friend is going to make me basket full of posts using his lathe and a die. I'm probably a good month away from that point, but if you wanna chip in some money for the cost of the material and the dinner that I'm gonna owe him, we can probably work something out.

Sonny

 

I'm going to look into the block gaurd method first, but might throw in some cash for some post's if it doesn't look like it will work

I think I might do some measurements tommarow, and see.

I might end up wasting a few bucks on a test gaurd, with the crappy d15!

 

bumpity.

There's got to be more people with knowlege on this.

 

NE one?

If there are no reponses I might as well try this

 

try it please because i had the same idea but no materials to really try it out on. i too would like to know.

 

Oh, hey Sonney, I was thinking...

If the block gaurd end's up fitting, I would think It would be an even better setup then "posting"

With post's your only "pushing" Little pins agains't the sleeve's to reduce movement forward/aft. With the block gaurd, it would be supporting the sleeves from all sides, thus creating more of a "brace" agains't movement. Seem's like the setup would be close to the strength of a closed deck configuration.

 

Bryson,

It sounds like you're gonna be the guinea pig on this one.

Keep in mind that the stresses placed on the cylinder walls are largely fore/aft because that corresponds to the rotation of the crank. In the "side to side" direction, the piston floats on the wrist pin.

If your idea works out, great. I'd try to find a way to see if it is working though without having to rip the engine apart. That'd be a total pain the azz.

Sonny

 

Max cylinder pressure is when the piston slightly after tdc... which is when pinging would happen.. there is no reason to reinforce anything but the top of the sleeve.

 

Yes, but max sidewall load is about halfway down the cylinder where the rod angle is at its greatest. It is particularly bad on the D series engines.

Sonny

 

yea would that be enough to break the sleeve tho? i dont think the force is great enough...
ive never heard of that. the most important time would be at ignition and just after TDC (like dustin said)

 

The sleeves don't fail from sidewall load, though...

 

Most sleeve's will fail AT THE MIDDLE, and the crack will work it's way to the top. Most failed sleeve's are due to resonances and vibrations that start crack's to form. By supporting the sleeve's in the area's where there is the most pressure exerted upon them, you can greatly reduce the chance of cracks being formed.

 

Well, I'll be trying the same thing on my car. I have two blockguards that I will put on my d15 block while I rebuild my d16 bottom end. I'll be running 10psi so I'll let you know how it goes, although it might be a few weeks before I pull the motor.

Bryson, if you try it before then, let us know.....btw, you were looking for a zc block, I think I saw one on http://www.thepartstrader.com

later,
L.

 

I have never seen a sleeve fail in the middle. Every single cracked OEM honda sleeve I have ever seen has cracked at the top from high cylinder pressure due to major detonation.

Dustin

 

Well just look at what Endyne had to say...

"There's a common misconception among Honda enthusiasts regarding cylinder breakage, what causes it and where it begins.
Truth be known, a properly tuned engine, running detonation limiting equipment will break the cylinders mid-way down the bore, where rod side thrust is the highest. This is a primary reason we advocate longer rods.
Cylinder cracking will spread to the top of the cylinder, rather than starting at the top and traveling downward.
Blockguards seal the top of the cylinders from direct water contact and the additional aluminum mass acts to hold a lot of heat in that upper cylinder area, which in-turn, contributes to detonation.
We've only run sealed decks on engines that are drag racing only pieces...and most of those were combinations where we were extending the deck height to permit the installation of longer rods.
I do not recommend the use of Blockguard "type" devices in steeet applications, due to the issues I've pointed out.
If you want an engine to last and run properly with a more "correct" air fuel mixture, make sure you've taken necessary measures to limit detonation and don't do anything to compromise cooling.
We do "post" cylinders in engines we build. We'll have a feature up shortly showing just how it's done...and it'll also be in some magazine articles coming up. "Posting" the cylinders gives them tremendous strength and it actually aids cylinder cooling, which is a pretty good deal in our book"

I threw all my cards on the table

 

triple T

 

bringing a post up from the dead how about this because now you've got me curious about boosting my d15 instead of spending the cash for the d16...

....so why not evenly place posts just like block posting and then slide a block guard down on top of it? the posts wouldn't even have to be touching the sleeves just protruding enough to be used as a support for the blockguard that way it wouldn't move at all...hell you could probably even run some posts into it or above it to really really assure its stability???

 

I was never intending to boost my D15, its just the piece-O-crap motor I having sitting in my garage (paper weight).

I was never able to try this out however. Since then I've made even bigger goals, and am going to send my ZC block out to GE for sleeves.

So far I have seen no one else bring this up?...If you do try it, you might be the first...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bryson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well just look at what Endyne had to say...

"There's a common misconception among Honda enthusiasts regarding cylinder breakage, what causes it and where it begins.
Truth be known, a properly tuned engine, running detonation limiting equipment will break the cylinders mid-way down the bore, where rod side thrust is the highest. This is a primary reason we advocate longer rods.
Cylinder cracking will spread to the top of the cylinder, rather than starting at the top and traveling downward.
Blockguards seal the top of the cylinders from direct water contact and the additional aluminum mass acts to hold a lot of heat in that upper cylinder area, which in-turn, contributes to detonation.
We've only run sealed decks on engines that are drag racing only pieces...and most of those were combinations where we were extending the deck height to permit the installation of longer rods.
I do not recommend the use of Blockguard "type" devices in steeet applications, due to the issues I've pointed out.
If you want an engine to last and run properly with a more "correct" air fuel mixture, make sure you've taken necessary measures to limit detonation and don't do anything to compromise cooling.
We do "post" cylinders in engines we build. We'll have a feature up shortly showing just how it's done...and it'll also be in some magazine articles coming up. "Posting" the cylinders gives them tremendous strength and it actually aids cylinder cooling, which is a pretty good deal in our book"

I threw all my cards on the table &lt;IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emwink.gif" BORDER="0"&gt; </TD></TR></TABLE>

consider the source! he has a mystery supercharger kit that has been in development for WELL over 3 years. i dont trust anything that man says.

show me pictures of a honda that broke the sleeve in the middle. i have seen ALOT of blown honda engines and all of them were at the top, where ignition occurs.

most of the pressure may be at the middle of the sleeve but for that split second of ignition the most force is on the top of the sleeve, thats why they break. and blockguards can work fine. they may cut off water flow but its made of aluminum/metal so it transfers heat just like the cylinder walls.

 

My local machine shop prefers epoxys because they are just as strong as welding them except they dont have to worry about the heat from welding distorting or weakening the block. None of them well fit perfectly tight in all areas so if they are slipped in they will be useless. I would be worried about overheating problems sometimes common with one guard being more likely with two. I would bore the coolant holes out bigger.

 

i would never use a blockguard, simply by going with what boosted-hybrid says, he told me the blockguard is made of a different material then the oem sleeves (naturally) therefore they expand at different temperatures, sometimes causing cylinders to become egged" on that alone i would not use em,,,,, but that bracing **** sounds promising...