alright heres the deal: I just got done putting my engine back together with pistons/cams/valvesprings, milled head, etc... so compression should be at 11.01:1.

the engine turns fine, gets fuel and gets spark, but does not start... where should I look next?

 

Start with the basics - you got the TPS and MAP hooked up? Are your cam gears set at zero, if you got your adjustables on - and marks line up with one another? Did you triple check the alignment marks on the crank wheel with the mark on the timing cover? All the ground wires back in the proper places - VC to body, tranny to battery? etc. Look for loose connectors, etc.

Spark plug wires in the proper order?

Oh, and looking at your build thread - did you make sure you clean off the crank and underside of the block before reassembly from all the honing shavings I see?

Idea: If you know some one super good with cars, have them come over and look at what you have done - they might spot something your tunnel vision to want it completed doesn't see.

 

tps and map are hooked up
cam gears are both as close to +1.5 degrees as possible because the head was milled .027"
all timing marks are perfect, including crank timing mark
grounds have been double checked and sanded a little to help
spark plugs are in the right order

I did clean off the crank and block after honing
I had some friends that are into cars come over last night to run through ideas, they helped me confirm there is sparking and fuel

I am doing a compression test right now, and here are approx. results:

cyl 4 cyl 3 cyl 2 cyl 1
190 160 165 175

I took out all the plugs and cleaned them off, then put them back and cranked for almost 20 seconds I think, and some of the plugs had turned a little black and some did not. it sounds like some of them try to catch a little and some do not. it appears that cyl 1 and 4 are the ones trying to ignite

while running a compression test, it sounds different than when I have the coil wire plugged in, and actually trying to start it.

 

What do you mean "it sounded different" ?

The spark plugs - are they just dusty black or soak in oil black? Shiny? Metal flecks on the ceramic? Do they smell like raw gas?

Compression test - I'm guessing you did this dry? Throttle plate 100% open and cranked three times for each cylinder? Try putting some oil down each cylinder and see if the compression goes up. If it does, your ring gap is too much.

Those results you got are really odd, or bad.

 

keeping in mind its a cold engine that hasn't been run yet ... I agree the results are a little strange... I had the throttle open wide and did about 5-6 cranks on each one.

the two spark plugs get black in color and the other two just get gassy, but there is gas in each cylinder on the pistons...no flakes.

I checked the gap on the piston rings before installing them and they should be a little on the tight side of things... I will try the oil trick though next.


here is a video that may help describe how it sounds different... but listen closely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8diWzAZd8I


grr this is pissing me off...

 

Hmmmm. Something is wrong with your dizzy or the firing order. The light is rythmic, but not correct for how it should be firing.

Confirm it is like this:


It sounds like on the first crank that it just isn't getting spark in the right order. I've had several do that due to wrong firing order.

If that doesn't do it, make sure the dizzy plugs are firmly plugged in, both of them.

You have a chipped ECU; go back to stock; if you used the only ECU you have, cut the wire you put in at J1, above the main custom 28pin EPROM chip . It won't rev well or anything, but it will idle.

No go there, may be time to open that thing up and check the crank angle sensor. You got a Helms manual for the diagnostic directions?

Check all your fuses under the hood? Just a random thought.

DO NOT hit the gas; you'll just wash the rings.

ALSO - if you get pissed, walk away, get a beer, chill. Pissy and built engine diag don't mix. Trust me heh. This happens to MANY people.

I'll watch the thread.


Modified by MoonScryer at 5:54 PM 4/3/2007


Modified by MoonScryer at 6:05 PM 4/3/2007


Modified by MoonScryer at 6:35 PM 4/3/2007

 

I checked the order again, it is correct on dizzy and cylinder number...
the distributor worked well before I did all this. it seems to be newer (less than 2 years old maybe) I also put the old cap and rotor back in to see if thats the problem (new one is after market)

I took a break and let the cylinders dry out and I cleaned my garage a bit lol...

I do have a chipped ecu (all I have to do is undo my jumper in order to re-use the stock chip?) which worked before also, and has a 95% stock program

I checked the fuses, did not find any discrepancies

I'll be sure not to hit the gas anymore lol... my bad.

thanks for the tips
keep em coming!

 

Yes, you just have to cut J1 for the stock chip to start working again. Is this your only ECU? Do you have another OBD-1 ECU of some kind?

Since it is a 92 Integra it is already OBD-1 so you didn't have to do a dizzy repin or use a jumper harness of some kind, so that is ruled out.

If after going back to a stock program that don't help, you made need to check the dizzy - crank angle sensor and ignitor, but since you are getting spark it may not be the ignitor.

Fuel + spark = fire, unless things are not at the place they should be in the order. IF the CAS if not working correctly, it can cause the problem you have - 90-93 Accords are infamous for it.

Timing belt didn't jump? If you move it back to TDC at #1, all the up marks are in the correct places? Just throwing it all out again, I know, but weird things happen.

You have a Helms manual yes?

 

Did you check to see if maybe the diizy is 180 degrees off?

 

That is also a good possibility, but the keyway on the intake cam is offset, so it near impossible to get it on wrong.

Aaron: you do have the dizzy positioned so the connectors are on the back of the dizzy and the flat part of the dizzy cap is on top, right? Just checking.

 

keyway is set right, and rotor points to cyl 1 plug wire at tdc

and yes distributor is on right side up

I put the stock chip back in and pulled the jumper on j1... still nothing


heres something strange though...
according to my timing light, it flashes like 3 times in a set then another 3 and so on for cyl 1... but for cyl2 it goes more constant flashing, but there are no sights in cyl 2 of any ignition happening...

 

Hrm. OK.

Crank angle sensor check time. While you are in there, check the ignitor anyway. I've had CAS's go out just POP like that, so could be that.

If nothing comes of check those two, then I just don't know.

It is something to do with the initial cranking, so unless you are not getting enough fuel - the two black plugs, two shiny ones is odd. What cylinders were each one on?

I'm crashing, check in the morning.

 

the blackened plugs are on cylinder 1 and 4, shiny are on 2 and 3. there should be plenty of fuel.

okay another idea...

when I have the dizzy set to retard all the way (toward front of car) the cranking sounds more consistent and not firing... when I have it all the way to advanced it sounds like it wants to start more... now since the head was milled, cam timing advanced, can I advance the distributor more than the slider holes? so if I pull the bolts out and have someone hold it in place is it safe? and how far would be too far to safely try?

I have not tested the crank angle sensor stuff yet either...

 

If you can advance the dizzy all the way and it sounds like it is trying to start, then something is off on your timing severely. The head being shaved the amount you did shouldn't affect your timing so much as to cause it not to start. When you rotate the dizzy to the stop, you are advancing nearly six-eight degrees.

Are you sure the timing belt is set correct? A tooth off is about eight degrees.

You can try the timing thing like you were describing, but that is rather dangerous. You need to mark on the top bolt post where the dizzy attaches with a sharpie a line across the bolt post on the head and the leg on the dizzy for a reference.

I don't really recommend doing that though. If you timing is so far advanced it starts better like that, then your cams / bottom end are WAY out of sync, more than advancing the cams +1 degree would account for. Also, what cam gears do you have? What generation of them if you have AEM's or some such?

 

okay instead of attempting the dizzy trick I played with the intake cam gear a little (skunk 2) and I got it out to +5 degrees and had someone crank it over and using a timing light I adjusted the distributor as close as I can guess for proper ignition timing, but still no real firing.

I checked for sparking on every plug, they all spark once for every 2 flashes of the timing light... strange I think... but the two middle ones don't turn black at all....

 

Remember each mark on a skunk2 tuner gear is 2degrees on the actual crank, not one.

Are you running the tuner or pro series gears?

Have you tried just setting it to 0 degrees for both?

If you set it too far, you will bend valves. If you have to, run through the diag code pulling on 11-48 in the Helms manual - jump the service connector, see if it spits codes.

I'm about at a loss as to why you are not getting good consistent fire. The only possible thing it could be, given you have confirmed spark on all four cylinders, is the loss of the crank angle sensor (CYP/CYK/thing, page 11-60 or -68 I think).

 

Anyone else got any ideas??

 

I have done this stuff with the service connector jumped, and nothing comes of it.

they are the regular skunk2 cam gears (tuner I suppose)
just tried 0 and 0 on cams, and with distributor slightly retarded, the sound was pretty continuous and not "catching at all" and when i advanced it all the way (dizzy) it would "catch" a little here and there... I am hoping my friend will let me borrow his working distributor so I can see if it is the problem...

 

That is just weird.

Unless there is something completely screwed in your timing, then your dizzy is the issue. If using the other working one doesn't do it, I am running out of ideas.

Let me know.

 

The timing gun flashes in the vid don't seem right. Hopefully borrowing a distributor to see if the sensors are the problem will clear it up.

Also, how long has it been sitting? Possibly bad fuel or water in the fuel? No ECU codes, right? If you unplug something do you get a code for that? Did you make any big changes to injector size or fuel pressure? If you pull a hose off the manifold and squirt in a few cc's of fuel, does it fire up for a second? If you think it's flooded you can disconnect the injector wires and crank it.

Sounds like you have already tried most of the stuff I would have suggested. Good luck.

 

the car has been sitting for about a month and a half now... I highly doubt the fuel has gone bad... I have gotten a car to run a b16 with moderately high compression off 6 month old gas...

my friend is being weird and doesn't really want to let me try his distributor... meh... but I did check the continuity on the distributor sensors... I got 350+/- 5 straight across the board as far as Ohms... and that should be within spec. I still want to try the distributor. next option would be trying an 0bd1 ecu... which I don't have... my friend has one in his car but he can be kinda **** sometimes

 

Go to autozone, get a dizzy, don't work, take it back.

Does work, take it back, get one from distributor king

 

Damn, Autozone always tells me that I can't return electronic parts.

 

I've taken them back before, but mileage may vary.

Aaron: might just consider looking around for a junkyard and finding one.

 

why not just start all over and redo your timing, degree your cams in that way you know they are right and go from there