I'm building an EG hatch which is primarily going to be used for HPDE track events.

I'm going to use a GSR block with forged pistons and rods, a type-r head and a Full Race stage1 gt turbokit. My plan is to run a GT2871R with 14psi (1bar) of boost.

My main concern about this build is tuning!

How should the motor be tuned to safely be able to withstand 20 minutes of continuos punishment?

Is it enough just to retard timing say 10 degrees below MBT along with a fat AF ratio?

Should I simply run less boost to get the heat down? Is it even possible to run this setup safely in HPDE events using pump gas?

Any input on the subject is appreciated! Detonation kills

Thanks!

 

Would also like to know.

 

Full-sized radiator and dual side-mount intercoolers FTW

Keep in mind that too much retard will make your turbo glow after a while. Most tuners go for the absolute max, so just tell them your running 89 octane so they don't get so aggressive I'd also suggest ceramic coatings on everything, heat wraps on most items, a couple fans, and good venting (jdm hood lean y0).

I know there is a gold eg coupe around here that runs courses but with a sleeved d16. IIRC he was in the 300's when he ran, and said he'd usually place before many evo's.

 

Ceramic coating, a full sized rad, heat wrap, a tube and fin style intercooler and a vented hood are what you need. You don't wanna run the car too retarded, just let your tuner know what you will be using the car for. Hopefully you can log and tweak the tune yourself for the best performance. If not, make sure you get a tuner that will street tune as well as dyno tune.

 

You may also be surprised at how much heat evacuation you will get with a simple hood kick.

 

Tune it on 87/91 octane but run 93 octane after the tune.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by david@didrace.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Tune it on 87/91 octane but run 93 octane after the tune.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, but how much timing is normal to retard when running 91 vs. 93 octane? How much richer AF?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Pompiuses &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Yeah, but how much timing is normal to retard when running 91 vs. 93 octane? How much richer AF?
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You don't want to have too much fuel or too little timing, both can do just as much damage as too little fuel and too much timing. Just get it tuned on 91 octane and use 93 octane after that.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by david@didrace.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You don't want to have too much fuel or too little timing, both can do just as much damage as too little fuel and too much timing. Just get it tuned on 91 octane and use 93 octane after that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree I dont think its smart to tune for a different octane than you are using. As said above, just let the tuner know what you are using it for, maybe even get it tuned at the track so the tuner can watch the EGTs/oil pressure etc of 20min runs. If you are only running it on the track, only tune on the track. I think renting out a small track for 4 hours (just ask them when their slowest times are and make a deal for X amount of money) would be worth the tune, make sure you get the best tuner around you.

 

I'd like to have a good understanding about what the tuner is doing. It's afterall my money that goes out the window if the motor blows. Just trusting my tuner doesn't really make me feel good.

So what I'd like to know is tuning tech! Exactly what does it mean tuning a car for different octane gas?

 

The tuner will dial in the A/F ratios across the board (14.7 at idle/part throttle and getting richer with more load ~ 11.5:1) with conservative timing values (pulling out 1 degree of advance per pound of boost from the stock timing table). Then once the fuel is good the tuner will adjust the timing to make best power at all loads/rpm levels without knock. Typically from that point if you want it to be 'safe' they'll pull some ignition advance out under boost. It'd be more accurate instead of guessing an amount of timing to pull out to be 'safe' to just tune for a lower octane rating than what you'll normally be using (tune with 91 but use 93).

The concept of a 'safe' tune is that if you ever get a bad tank of gas with a lower octane level than normal that you're not going to be past the edge to the point where the motor will knock. There is no benefit to running too rich or have too little timing if you have good gas in the tank.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by david@didrace.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The concept of a 'safe' tune is that if you ever get a bad tank of gas with a lower octane level than normal that you're not going to be past the edge to the point where the motor will knock. There is no benefit to running too rich or have too little timing if you have good gas in the tank.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Won't running less timing (not too little offcourse) decrase cylinder pressure and thus decrease the amount of heat created? Won't that make the car run more reliable no matter what gas your running?

 

Full size radiator, ceramic coat, oil cooler

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Pompiuses &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Won't running less timing (not too little offcourse) decrase cylinder pressure and thus decrease the amount of heat created? Won't that make the car run more reliable no matter what gas your running?
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No, having too little timing can cause the fuel to continue burning into the exhaust.

 

BoostedHybrid (Jeff Evans) took his 300+whp turbo white hatch to the tracks once. He was trying to prove that turbos were very easy to track....people think you HAVE to tune conservative because of heat build up extra.....BULL ****!

As far as the tuning goes nothing needs to change much between a street/strip car to a track car (non drag). Both will be a little below MBT timing wise to keep things safe due to varying pump gases and AF should be around 12.0. People still tend to believe that richer AF's really cool things a lot . Look at your EGT gauge when you go from 12.0 to 11.0 AFRs . Water injection will help with that about 2 fold due to it's higher specific heat. Basically don't worry about the tuning, just tell him it's not a drag car and doens't need to make the best power like your average street/strip setup.

I WOULD though worry about heat BUILD UP. Definitely get a good radiator, intercooler and even an oil cooler. These at a MUST for a track car.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Pompiuses &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Won't running less timing (not too little offcourse) decrase cylinder pressure and thus decrease the amount of heat created? Won't that make the car run more reliable no matter what gas your running?
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decrease cylinder pressures yes, but that remaining energy is then sent to your exhaust valves/exhaust manifold/turbo and etc... Making them run hotter. This is especially bad for the exhaust valves and turbo .....it'll also make your oil temps steadily rise I assume which causes oil break down and yea....you see where I'm going hahaha

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Pompiuses &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Won't running less timing (not too little offcourse) decrase cylinder pressure and thus decrease the amount of heat created? Won't that make the car run more reliable no matter what gas your running?
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Less cylinder pressure = less horsepower.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by adseguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I WOULD though worry about heat BUILD UP. Definitely get a good radiator, intercooler and even an oil cooler. These at a MUST for a track car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That is very right. You'd be surprised on how many turbo hondas benefit from something as small as a hoodkick at the track. After a standard tune,heat evacuation is the key.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by adseguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BoostedHybrid (Jeff Evans) took his 300+whp turbo white hatch to the tracks once. He was trying to prove that turbos were very easy to track....people think you HAVE to tune conservative because of heat build up extra.....BULL ****!

As far as the tuning goes nothing needs to change much between a street/strip car to a track car (non drag). Both will be a little below MBT timing wise to keep things safe due to varying pump gases and AF should be around 12.0. People still tend to believe that richer AF's really cool things a lot . Look at your EGT gauge when you go from 12.0 to 11.0 AFRs . Water injection will help with that about 2 fold due to it's higher specific heat. Basically don't worry about the tuning, just tell him it's not a drag car and doens't need to make the best power like your average street/strip setup.

I WOULD though worry about heat BUILD UP. Definitely get a good radiator, intercooler and even an oil cooler. These at a MUST for a track car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

His car also has less heatsoak issues. Efficient intercooler and a very nice AIR manifold. Those play a part in keeping the tune on target.

Chris F had issues with his turbo car on track heating up and the tune modifying itself due to heatsoak. Car got slower as it got richer.

Cooling and system health/efficiency should rank at the top of the list for any track car honestly.

 

Consistency is probably the most important thing... Tuning is rich and conservative timing will help to an extent, but overly rich and overly retarded timing doesn't help the problem.

The best thing so do is to bring it to a good tuner... If you are planning on tuning it yourself, datalog back to back pulls and check for coolant temps, oil temps,IAT, EGT's, fuel pressure and so on. Just make sure all the mechanical aspect of the setup is running consistently. No "safe" tuning would save a motor from overheating, really high IAT's and a weak fuel pump for example.

The real kicker here is that you are basically building the car to OEM-specs.. Like a factory Subaru STi, or a Lancer Evo, etc... that are meant to take repeated abuse from any type of driving. All the details have been taken to extreme measures; the setup is way "overbuilt" to allow room for error. If you think you can get away with a half size radiator, well, you *might* get away, but a full size rad is much less likely to have cooling problems. An oil cooler is a must, and good fans for both the rad and oil cooler. Choose an appropriate intercooler so it won't obstruct airflow to the rad/oil cooler and engine bay. Run the highest octane gas possible or even throw in a slight race gas mix if you are only racing it for several events per year; choose a colder plug, say one range colder then what you usually use for street driving.

Water/meth injection would be the next best thing do install... Again, durability and reliability is the main concern because water injection is supposed to prevent detonation, not causing a melt down of the system ever fails or falls behind. So don't go out and buy those cheap kits; get something that is proven for street use with a good reliability history.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by splitime &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

His car also has less heatsoak issues. Efficient intercooler and a very nice AIR manifold. Those play a part in keeping the tune on target.

Chris F had issues with his turbo car on track heating up and the tune modifying itself due to heatsoak. Car got slower as it got richer.

Cooling and system health/efficiency should rank at the top of the list for any track car honestly. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree totally. The setup needs to be very heat efficient (just like any track car). I was answering on the point of tuning where the hotter your car gets the more the EMS will compensate with fueling and timing automatically.

 

I'd think about sleeves too, seen too many stock sleeves fail under continuous boost from highway pulls. If you're spending that much $ anyway, what's an extra $800 or so? The main thing I found tracking my turbo Honda was cooling. A Fluidyne radiator took care of me running 20+ PSI of boost at Roebling Road going 160 or so. Also pay close attention to your brakes/suspension/tires, because a turbo Honda on a road course will get going very fast very quickly.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tony the Tiger &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> No "safe" tuning would save a motor from overheating, really high IAT's</TD></TR></TABLE>

Could you define really high for me?

As for the full-sized radiator....I know that some of you can't easily put a normal full-sized radiator in the car. I wanted better cooling abilities than the be-loved half sized radiators. It's a custom made to my dimensions, and it's not that expensive. So here is the solution:

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by adseguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BoostedHybrid (Jeff Evans) took his 300+whp turbo white hatch to the tracks once. He was trying to prove that turbos were very easy to track....people think you HAVE to tune conservative because of heat build up extra.....BULL ****!
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, but he was running race gas. That's not cheap

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tony the Tiger &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Consistency is probably the most important thing... Tuning is rich and conservative timing will help to an extent, but overly rich and overly retarded timing doesn't help the problem.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

So basically what you're saying is just get the car tuned like any other car (slightly conservative). But keeping the car's different fluids temps and IAT from rising too much is key for reliability?

I'm seriously considering using E85. Too bad there's not many gas stations that have it yet in my area .

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Pompiuses &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So basically what you're saying is just get the car tuned like any other car (slightly conservative). But keeping the car's different fluids temps and IAT from rising too much is key for reliability?
</TD></TR></TABLE>




I ran a half-width Fluidyne for road courses, worked great.

EDIT - 408 WHP turbo B16