My 200whp w/stock exhaust challenge... update at end of thread!

I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this situation. I had a recent rebuild of my head, including: (the BOLD ones are NEW)

jdm pistons
thin headgasket
skunk2 stage 2 cams
cam gears
skunk2 springs, retainers
skunk2 high compression forged valves
vafc2 and fpr
aem cai

As soon as she was done, we noticed that at the vtec crossover point of 6,100 rpm, it LAGGED. I mean BAD. Until about 7,000. After I had her tuned, including the cam adjustments, the only way to remove the LAG was to change the crossover point to 6,900 rpm. Which kinda sucks, cause then I dont get to hear glorious vtec (no dont make fun) as much. - illustrated by my frustrated "blips" into vtec in this video: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1900996

The following dyno sheet is the car after the headwork UNTUNED vs TUNED. We could simply not get that horrible lag out of there between 6-7,000 !!!




CAN ANYONE PLEASE SHED SOME LIGHT ON THIS FOR ME??? According to Skunk2, this is natural for these cams to need to be at such a high RPM for them to work properly. Seems odd to me.

I will seriously appreciate any intelligent comments. thank you!


Modified by Andrew Sutherland at 11:12 AM 3/6/2007


Modified by Andrew Sutherland at 11:13 AM 3/6/2007

 

s2s2's do like a high vtec x-over. get a better tuning system and head back to the dyno.

 

Regardless of the noticable dip in the curve, that curve in general should be much smoother. The dip during the VTEC engagement is cause by a lean spot in the fuel map if I'm not mistaken.

Are you sure you want to stick with that VAFC?
How was your fuel pressure?
Stock injectors I asume?

 

drop the vfac and get hondata

i dont know what hondata does with these ecus but once you get one your hooked

 

Ok, good comments. I am planning on ditching the vafc and getting crome. Is Hondata that much better than crome?

My FPR is sitting pretty high pressure. Stock injectors, but I was planning on upgrading (theres a thread somewhere here about upgrading to some stock Acura injectors with a higher output)

 

i never used crome myself i havent heard anything bad from it its jsut prefferance some people liek crome some like hondata. i like hondata because when i had my k20 and kpro it was easy as **** to tune myself and change setting. i havent messed with crome but i did some ready seems a little more complicated

 

Are there A/F plots for the dyno runs?

 

Andy, when choosing an engine management system you should consider which program your tuner is good with. A system is only as good as it's tune. A properly tuned VAFC is better than an AEM EMS with a **** tune. See what I'm saying? I can only assume that your tuner has recommended Crome. If not, you should ask what program he is comfortable with and go with that one.

 

Do a Hondata S100 system for under $200 and you will be set.

The large (VTEC) lobes on that cam are starved for fuel when they initially kick in. No matter where you set your VTEC crossover to be, you're going to be lean on a stock ECU in that section of your map.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cltitus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">drop the vfac and get hondata

i dont know what hondata does with these ecus but once you get one your hooked</TD></TR></TABLE>

I say go with the s300...for the price, you get full user tunablitiy, any tuner can tune it on the dyno, and you get more features and ease of use than any other system out there. I have one on all 3 of my cars.

And by the way we sprinkle powdered crack on every s300 so when you touch it it absorbs into your skin and you become addicted.

 

If I were to go Hondata, should I spend the extra $$ and go for the S300, or will the S100 do for a non-boosted setup like mine?

How much would an s300 run me... and where do you suggest I look? (other than buy and sell on forums)

thx:D

 

Ditching the AFC =

Getting Hondata/CROME/Uberdata/etc =

That can be tuned out with a better system.

And for your information, a friend of mine just sold his S300 with everything needed to plug and play, for $300. Pretty damn good price.

 

You need timing control.

You will be able to pull another 10-15hp out with a tuned timing map. I can tell just from the curve your problem lies with ignition spark.

 

A lot of people don't realize that the VAFC and other piggy backs will alter the map signal going into the ecu. When you "richen" up the setting, all you are doing is sending an altered map signal to the ecu, this in turn will also alter your TIMING in a (usually) negative fashion. This is why piggyback units SUCK.

If your just doing a little tweaking, the change will be minimal, but with big-*** cams and that much engine work (and thus a lot of tuning needed) the timing change will have a very large (usually negative) affect.

Buy a chipped ECU, for all the money you've put into the engine, a $200 phearable/kenji ecu will do wonders.

Go get it tuned and enjoy your newly-found power!

 

If you are still confused as to what obd1 tuning solutions are. I recommend you read over http://phearable.net/tech/efibeginnerguide.html

 

crome and hondata

 

Well, tonight's the night! She's getting her obd1 conversion, crome ecu installed, vafc removed, and going out to Zensport to the dyno!!!

I haven't changed ANYTHING else since the last dyno run, so it will be interesting to see exactly what switching from tuned on a vafc to fully tuned on crome will provide. I am -very- excited

Well, I should say almost nothing. We may throw in some H22 injectors for good measure... depending on the duty cycle of the stock injectors. According to H-T stock 240cc's are only good for 180-190 whp.

I'll post in here tonight with the results, and upload graphs once I have them.

Commmmoooooooooooooooooooon 200 whp !!!!!!!

 

Can't wait for the numbers Andy.
Subscribed

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andrew Sutherland &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well, I should say almost nothing. We may throw in some H22 injectors for good measure... depending on the duty cycle of the stock injectors. According to H-T stock 240cc's are only good for 180-190 whp.
Commmmoooooooooooooooooooon 200 whp !!!!!!! </TD></TR></TABLE>


You're using stock injectors with aftermarket big lobe cams???

Why are you doing that?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Big Phat R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You're using stock injectors with aftermarket big lobe cams???

Why are you doing that?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Because I didn't know it was necessary and I'm a n00b

Will the H22's be enough do you think?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Big Phat R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You're using stock injectors with aftermarket big lobe cams???
Why are you doing that?</TD></TR></TABLE>

You and I really know the answer to this question deep down inside (well maybe not that deep), ... but I've also always wondered about those virtually obvious implementation/design/compromise issues.

Then again, sometimes people like me tend to try and over-do it, then just never seem to finish the project.

P.S. 189 is not at all bad.
I liked the Mugen vtec engagement @ something like 47-4900 rpm. iirc

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andrew Sutherland &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Because I didn't know it was necessary and I'm a n00b

Will the H22's be enough do you think?</TD></TR></TABLE>


If you're aiming for 200 whp use 310s or 440s

I don't know what the flow rate of the H22s are....anyone?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Big Phat R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't know what the flow rate of the H22s are....anyone?</TD></TR></TABLE>

290cc I believe

 

The "Lude ones may be 290cc/min.

 

some prelude injectors a nice header and exhaust would put you over 200whp no problem

btw my vtec is at 6500 with bc3+ cams but its only because i have stock i/h/e when i let the engine breathe more the engagement will go down dramatically because most bc3+ crossovers are around 5500 so i would assume the same for you