I currently have a set of Falken Ziex ZE512 and am not too impressed with the performance. What tires have you guys run in that size for all season, and any comments? Suggestions?

 

Part of the problem is, all-season tires just aren't all that good. They are a compromise tire, designed for people who have to use the same tire in snow and frigid cold in the winter, as in moderate to warm temperatures the rest of the year. They don't stick as well in winter as winter tires, and they don't stick as well the rest of the time as summer tires. If you're really looking for good performance, you're better off getting a spare set of wheels (steelies are cheap, either new or used) and putting winter tires on them for the winter, and a good set of summer tires on your other wheels for the rest of the year. That way, you'll have much better performance all year round than with the compromises of an all-season tire. And if you have a car on which you have high-horsepower mods, you really need the extra performance of a really good summer tire the rest of the year; otherwise, those mods are really just wasted without a tire with the performance to handle the extra power. If I had a supercharged or turbocharged '97-00 Civic, I would get a set of Bridgestone Blizzak WS-50 or Michelin X-Ice winter tires in 195/55-15 on steelies for winter use, and a set of Falken Azenis RT-615 summer tires in 205/50-15 on my other wheels to use the rest of the year.

However, to answer your specific question, the best all-season tires available in 205/50-15 are the Kumho Ecsta ASX, $56/tire at the Tire Rack. They're much better than the Falken Ziex ZE-512. But, outside of winter, they're nowhere near as good as a good summer tire like the Kumho Ecsta SPT, let alone a supersticky one like the Falken Azenis RT-615. And in winter, they're nowhere near as good as a good winter tire like the WS-50 or X-Ice.

 

I have to agree with Nsxtasy. It would be much better to have a set of summer tires and a set of winter tires. The performance is night and day.

 

i also agree with these guys ^^, however if ur looking for the grip of the RT-615 (very impressive) and some all around traction (perhaps in the rain) the Hankook Ventus Rs2's are pretty great. Less grip than the 615, but better grip in the rain, and a softer sidewall makes the Ventus a good tire of all around use... do consider the treadwear tho.. at 200, your tire will be bald in have the time that ur ziex will last
my $.02

 

well i run some 205/50r15 proxes 4 and i have yet not had a problem with them and i also live in logan, ut and if you know where that is then you will know that it snows alot in the winter.... and for the summer i run 205/45r15 proxes 4 made by toyo.... i haven't had a problem with them but thay are pricey but they are good though..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 91_civic_si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well i run some 205/50r15 proxes 4 and i have yet not had a problem with them and i also live in logan, ut and if you know where that is then you will know that it snows alot in the winter.... and for the summer i run 205/45r15 proxes 4 made by toyo.... i haven't had a problem with them but thay are pricey but they are good though..</TD></TR></TABLE>

well the Proxes 4 don't perform very well they don't grip as well in winter as a really good all-season like the kumho asx and they don't grip as well the rest of the year as a good summer tire or even another good all-season tire so the bottom line is that they really aren't that good a choice but did you ever go to english class when you were in school because when you learn english you learn that you're supposed to put a capital letter at the start of every sentence and a period at the end of every sentence which will help other people understand what you're trying to say because it breaks what you're trying to say into individual sentences and thoughts which are easier to understand and if you don't do that it will just sound like a bunch of words thrown together that don't make a lot of sense as you can see from reading this

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

well the Proxes 4 don't perform very well they don't grip as well in winter as a really good all-season like the kumho asx and they don't grip as well the rest of the year as a good summer tire or even another good all-season tire so the bottom line is that they really aren't that good a choice but did you ever go to english class when you were in school because when you learn english you learn that you're supposed to put a capital letter at the start of every sentence and a period at the end of every sentence which will help other people understand what you're trying to say because it breaks what you're trying to say into individual sentences and thoughts which are easier to understand and if you don't do that it will just sound like a bunch of words thrown together that don't make a lot of sense as you can see from reading this
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Now that is funny

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the best all-season tires available in 205/50-15 are the Kumho Ecsta ASX</TD></TR></TABLE>

I disagree.

 

then what would you have him run on then??? because i would use the kumho asx as well if i needed a all season tire

 

Yup, absolutely.

There ARE a few all-season tires that are slightly better than the Kumho ASX: Bridgestone Potenza RE960AS, Michelin Pilot Sport AS, Avon Tech 550AS, and Pirelli PZero Nero M+S. Along with the Kumho ASX, these are the five best all-season tires you can buy. I usually recommend the ASX over the others because the others are a whole lot more money than the ASX, whereas the performance differences are small. However, none of those other four tires is even available in 205/50-15.

So the Kumho Ecsta ASX really is the best all-season tire available in 205/50-15. Nothing else even comes close.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There ARE a few all-season tires that are slightly better than the Kumho ASX: Bridgestone Potenza RE960AS, Michelin Pilot Sport AS, Avon Tech 550AS, and Pirelli PZero Nero M+S.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hey now, you can't leave the Pilot Exalto A/S out of this group if you are talking irregardless of money. It basically equalled the ASX, and beat the Avon Tech M550 A/S in TireRack tests. Bang for buck it may be one of the worst choices, but performance wise it is pretty high up there. I have no idea why they changed the price from the $100/tire I paid for the A/S to more than $130 in the course of a year, but hey, it is Michelin, they charge too much for everything these days.

Jon

EDIT: Also, TireRack tests don't include snow, and this is where I felt my Exalto A/Ss excelled compared to the HP or UHP All-Compromises I have owned.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaF1Fanatic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hey now, you can't leave the Pilot Exalto A/S out of this group if you are talking irregardless of money. It basically equalled the ASX, and beat the Avon Tech M550 A/S in TireRack tests.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, it didn't. You're confusing two different tires. The claims you make apply to the Pilot Sport A/S, Michelin's top-of-the-line all-season tire, which I mentioned above and did not leave out. The Pilot Exalto A/S is more of a budget all-season and its performance is a significant step down from the Pilot Sport AS or the Kumho ASX.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

No, it didn't. You're confusing two different tires. The claims you make apply to the Pilot Sport A/S, Michelin's top-of-the-line all-season tire, which I mentioned above and did not leave out. The Pilot Exalto A/S is more of a budget all-season and its performance is a significant step down from the Pilot Sport AS or the Kumho ASX.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I am not confusing the two . Assuming relatively similar numbers from testing here are the results:

Pilot Exalto A/S (6.77 Overall Score) vs. Potenza RE950 (6.71 overall) vs. Continental Extreme Contact (6.43 overall)

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/...id=60

Kumho Ecsta ASX (6.8 overall, only .03 higher than Exalto in test w/ Exalto head to head w/ Extreme Contact) vs. Continental Extreme Contact (6.47 overall, .04 higher than in the test vs the Exalto A/S) vs. Pirelli P-Zero Nero M/S (6.96 overall)

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/...id=52

Avon Tech M550 A/S (6.71 overall, loses to Potenza RE950 by .08 whereas Exalto beats RE950 it by .06 in head to head test) vs. Bstone Potenza RE950 (6.79 overall) vs. Michelin XGT Z4 (6.60 overall)

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/...id=55

Is that enough info?

Jon

 

Also, I have owned the ASX, Exalto A/S, PZero M+S and would rate them:

Dry:
1.) PZero Nero M+S (head and shoulders better)
2.) Kumho Ecsta ASX (tie)
2.) Michelin Pilot Exalto A/S (tie)

Wet:

1.) PZero Nero M+S (closer this time)
2.) Michelin Exalto A/S
3.) Kumho Ecsta ASX (a bit behind)

Light Snow/Slush/Ice

1.) Exalto A/S (head and shoulders better)
2.) Ecsta ASX
3.) PZero Nero M+S (a bit behind the other two)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaF1Fanatic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am not confusing the two . Assuming relatively similar numbers from testing here are the results:
.
.
.
Is that enough info?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sure, it's enough to show why you're looking at it wrong. In your previous post, you said that the Tire Rack had tested the tires against each other, but you were wrong about that. You are now comparing scores on user survey results, but those survey results are totally bogus. The problem with the user survey results is that they don't measure two tires against each other; they only consist of responses from people using one tire and not another. This means that they are very biased; people who don't try various tires but keep using the same tire over and over again will give it high scores, even when it's a truly crappy tire. That's why you have really awful tires that get higher ratings than really terrific tires. For example, the Kumho Ecsta KH11 is one of the absolute worst tires on the planet, the very worst summer tire Kumho makes, even worse than Kumho's Ecsta 711 tire - yet it gets higher numbers in user surveys for dry performance than the excellent Kumho SPT. That doesn't mean that the performance of the KH11 is in ANY way better than the SPT, only that the owners of the KH11 give it higher marks than the owners of the SPT. If you conducted a survey in the same fashion, you might easily find that owners of the Chevy Aveo give it higher marks than owners of the Corvette or BMW some other high-end car - similarly, those results don't imply that the Aveo is the better car.

I've driven all of these all-season tires. These are the best all-season tires you can buy: Kumho ASX, Bridgestone Potenza RE960AS, Michelin Pilot Sport AS, Avon Tech 550AS, and Pirelli PZero Nero M+S (not necessarily in that order, but these five are the best out there). Sure, there are other all-season tires you can buy (including the Michelin Pilot Exalto A/S), but they don't even come close to ANY of these five all-season tires.

Again: the Kumho Ecsta ASX really is the best all-season tire available in 205/50-15. Nothing else even comes close.

P.S. You should really get a set of winter tires in Grand Rapids. All-seasons just aren't enough for a harsh winter climate. Did you know that Grand Rapids averages twice as much snowfall per year as Chicago (74 vs 38 inches)?



Modified by nsxtasy at 2:14 PM 2/9/2007

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sure, it's enough to show why you're looking at it wrong. In your previous post, you said that the Tire Rack had tested the tires against each other, but you were wrong about that. You are now comparing scores on user survey results, but those survey results are totally bogus.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The links I provided weren't to user surveys, did you even read them? They were Tire Rack test results at their test track , and I qualified my conclusions by saying "assuming relatively similar numbers from testing". True, they weren't head to head, but if Tire A beats Tire B in tests and Tire B beats Tire C in tests , isn't it reasonable to assume that Tire A is better than Tire C. I do run snows when the weather gets there but I need something in between the 45-50F that I stop running summer tires and the below 30* weather where we usually get snowed on (12+" in west Michigan last week). I am running Bridgestone WS-50s on my newer Accord and Yokohama IceGuard IG10s on my beater.

Jon

PS: Sorry for the bold, but I wanted to make it clear, the results I showed you are from instrumented AND subjective testing done by the TireRack, not the stupid surveys.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaF1Fanatic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The links I provided weren't to user surveys, did you even read them? They were Tire Rack test results at their test track , and I qualified my conclusions by saying "assuming relatively similar numbers from testing". True, they weren't head to head, but if Tire A beats Tire B in tests and Tire B beats Tire C in tests , isn't it reasonable to assume that Tire A is better than Tire C.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No. I've discussed this with the Technical Director at the Tire Rack, and he said that you should absolutely NOT - never, never, NEVER - compare numerical results from different tests, because they were conducted at different times in different environmental conditions.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

No. I've discussed this with the Technical Director at the Tire Rack, and he said that you should absolutely NOT - never, never, NEVER - compare numerical results from different tests, because they were conducted at different times in different environmental conditions.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

True, I guess a 10*-20* difference might make a difference in results, but the fact is that the Exalto A/S posted similar results to the other tires you listed and is most likely classified as HP rather than UHP because it wouldn't make sense for Michelin to have 2 tires competing in the same class at 2 different price points, one would most definitely steal sales from the other. Finally, I have also owned the Ecsta ASX, PZero Nero M+S, Exalto A/S, and my dad has owned a set of the Pilot A/S and while I would put the Pilot A/S and the Pirelli at the top of the table in dry conditions, the Exalto hangs with them in wet and light snow easily. I hated the ASX when I owned it, but I am willing to recommend it because it is a reasonably price tire and many other ppl have had good experiences with it.

Jon

PS: You should tell the tech director at the tire rack to post something to that extent on the website, their using "standardized" testing and scoring is a bit misleading if what you say is true.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaF1Fanatic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the fact is that the Exalto A/S posted similar results to the other tires you listed</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, the fact is that those results shouldn't be compared against each other.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaF1Fanatic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">is most likely classified as HP rather than UHP because it wouldn't make sense for Michelin to have 2 tires competing in the same class at 2 different price points</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not true. That happens all the time. Lots of manufacturers have multiple tires in the same class, and many of them have different price points. For example, Michelin has five different tires listed as "Max Performance Summer" and three as "Ultra High Performance All-Season".

The reason they don't list the Pilot Exalto A/S as "Ultra High Performance All-Season" is that it doesn't perform as well as the tires in that category.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

No, the fact is that those results shouldn't be compared against each other.

Not true. That happens all the time. Lots of manufacturers have multiple tires in the same class, and many of them have different price points. For example, Michelin has five different tires listed as "Max Performance Summer" and three as "Ultra High Performance All-Season".

The reason they don't list the Pilot Exalto A/S as "Ultra High Performance All-Season" is that it doesn't perform as well as the tires in that category.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one

Jon

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not true. That happens all the time. Lots of manufacturers have multiple tires in the same class, and many of them have different price points. For example, Michelin has five different tires listed as "Max Performance Summer"</TD></TR></TABLE>

You realize that of the five different Max Po tires they have, 3 are from completely different generations of tire design (Oldest: Pilot SX MXX3, Old: Pilot Sport, Latest: Pilot Sport PS2)? I think even the most stubborn person would have to admit that there has been slight advances in tire technology and design during this time. Another one of the five was developed solely for a manufacturer (Pilot Sport Rib, for Porsche), and the last of the five is simply a run flat version of one of the others (Pilot Sport ZP, although this is only offered in Viper fitments also). Therefore, your argument has some flaws, these aren't tires from the same generation, or even truly in the same class if you take into account the advances in tire design. Thus, since the Exalto A/S is from one of the newest generations of tires, it wouldn't be out of this world to think that it might just perform better than some of the UHP A/S tires of the past even though Michelin has chosen to class it as an HP tire.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and three as "Ultra High Performance All-Season".</TD></TR></TABLE>

Again, you are failing to take into account the differing performance between tire generations and the fact that two tires may be the same design save for a sidewall designed to be able to withstand running flat along with the fact that the ZP is offered in a whopping 2 tire sizes, that conveniently are for one car from one manufacturer (see above Porsche reference)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No, the fact is that those results shouldn't be compared against each other.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I understand you pride yourself on knowledge of tires, and I agree that you know quite a bit more technical information than most people, myself included. However saying that your 100% subjective experience (unless you have instrumented results that you would like to share) holds more weight than the TireRack's standardized testing is a bit questionable in the least. That coupled with the fact that I was unable to find a tire that scored more than 1 standard deviation of difference between tests (albeit it in a brief search) leads me to believe that the Tech Director was maybe a bit bashful in admitting how close their testing is to being dead on in comparing overall test numbers across tests regardless of the day they were performed.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaF1Fanatic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You realize that of the five different Max Po tires they have, 3 are from completely different generations of tire design (Oldest: Pilot SX MXX3, Old: Pilot Sport, Latest: Pilot Sport PS2)?</TD></TR></TABLE>

So what? There are lots of examples of multiple tires in the same category under the same manufacturer.

You claimed that the Tire Rack doesn't list the PE2 in the top all-season category because they don't want to list more than one tire in their top category, but you were WRONG - again - when you said that.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaF1Fanatic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think even the most stubborn person</TD></TR></TABLE>

BTW, that would be YOU, for endlessly arguing about tires you shouldn't even be using in the first place. I don't know why you keep posting this drivel, except that apparently you refuse to admit when you're wrong - ever, apparently - and you keep saying the same WRONG things over and over to make it look like you weren't wrong, even though you were.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaF1Fanatic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">saying that your 100% subjective experience (unless you have instrumented results that you would like to share) holds more weight than the TireRack's standardized testing is a bit questionable in the least.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wrong again - WRONG because I never said that, and WRONG because the Tire Rack's testing procedures are not "standardized" in that fashion and, according to them, numbers in one test should not be compared with those in another.

Bottom line: (1) You are WRONG when you keep trying to compare numbers that the Tire Rack says should not be compared (and arguing endlessly the same wrong things, over and over and over and over and over and over again). No matter how many times you keep trying to say the same things, you are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG when you say it - according to the top technical guy of the place that originated the numbers. You can keep doing it, over and over and over and over and over and over again, but it's still going to be WRONG no matter how many times you say it.

(2) The Kumho ASX is much, much, MUCH better than the Michelin Pilot Exalto AS.

(3) You yourself agree that the Kumho ASX is a better choice anyway, because it costs around half the price of the Pilot Exalto AS. (Your words: "Bang for buck it may be one of the worst choices")

Please stop wasting everyone's time by endlessly posting the same WRONG information and the same WRONG arguments over and over and over and over again, especially since they are irrelevant to the tire recommendation of the ASX, with which you apparently agree.



Modified by nsxtasy at 12:19 AM 2/11/2007

 

Ouch!!! lol

I would have to agree the Asx is the best choice!

 

Yeah, I am all wrong, you are all right, I bow to you.

Jon

Edit: I found out why I am wrong wrong wrong from the website, but it probably hasn't been updated by the tech director yet:


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TireRack &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">To keep their evaluations consistent, we currently use four 2006 BMW 325i E90 sport sedans or three 2006 Porsche Cayenne SUVs (depending on the type of tires). Drivers follow the same Real World Road Ride route and run the same Performance Test Track Course. For that matter, the only things that really change are the tires we are testing.</TD></TR></TABLE> from: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/...m.jsp

So while I keep spouting my wrong information backed up by evidence, you keep telling me I am wrong using your higher post count, opinion, and condescending attitude.


Modified by HondaF1Fanatic at 9:49 AM 2/11/2007

 

Alright I think this threads over....i was just looking for some suggestions...LMAO you guys can stop arguing!!! LOL