The recent talk about many top H1 drivers running K-series engines in 2007, and the basic death of the B-series in H1, got me thinking about how this change effects the overall handling of the car.

I was reading up on suspension tuning and corner weighting when I started to think about how the weight of a LHD car, with a D or B series engine, will always be biased to the left side simply because the driver, and the bulk of the drive train are located on the left side. Since switching to a K Series engine places the engine weight over on the right side, I wondered whether this had a big impact on the balance of the car.

So to those who've switched over from B to K, other than the increased power, was there a positive effect due to the better weight distribution? Was it easier to adjust cross weights?

It just got me thinking.

 

i dont think there is any handling improvement, going from B to K. especially because K cars have to carry so much more weight....

todd

 

i cannot recall where I heard this info but the K 20 was designed with more weight saving elements resulting in a very similar weight to the B series 1.8 liter

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> the basic death of the B-series in H1, </TD></TR></TABLE>


how do you figure the b is dead??

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how do you figure the b is dead??</TD></TR></TABLE>

That was in reference to a recent blog I read. The prediction was that the top 4-5 contenders at 2007 Nat's will all be running K's. The B may not be dead in H1, but it's potential to be a real contender to the K are slipping away. This is all speculation BTW, bench racing at it's best.

So, Chad, what are your thoughts on the handling differences? I didn't take into account that the car must weigh more, but I ASSume you don't run that weight for Time Attacks right? Is there any advantage to this moved weight?

Thinking about the added ballast, is it now worse? Does moving the engine weight o the right as well as adding ballast on the right even it out, or swing the bias to the right?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">a recent blog I read.... The prediction was... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Certainly, credible information there....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

but I ASSume you don't run that weight for Time Attacks right? Is there any advantage to this moved weight?
</TD></TR></TABLE>


all those time attack times were with the WEIGHT in the car...minus the passenger seat of 32 lbs....so i was within 15lbs of the 2400 k weight.

and my times with or without a passenger are .3-.5 seconds slower with a passenger (150-220lbs)

handling there is no difference in my opinion...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Certainly, credible information there.... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Don't shoot the messenger. It came from a former H1 racer, I'm just passing it along.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">handling there is no difference in my opinion...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Fair enough. I assume the weight distribution changed when you swapped over to a K, any idea of how much?

 

I'll give it a shot. A built to the limit B-series can only compete with a K(a front runner) if it's at Min weight. Weight balance in H1 is a non issue since you can put ballast anywhere.

JMO

b.

 

Its not like transmissions are mass-less.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Don't shoot the messenger. It came from a former H1 racer, I'm just passing it along. </TD></TR></TABLE>

A blog.. with predictions... from a former racer...

 

Who cares if he thinks the B is dead RJ.. . .

Just over a year and a half ago when I saw Chad Slagg just rape the competition down the stretches at VIR I knew the B series and the S2000 were in serious trouble for H1.

After I saw Chad whoopin up, I baught my first Honda and started buying K series swap parts.. . It didn't matter if I saw him win or loose that race. K was the way to go from that point on after a few chats and investigation.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 6spdKEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It didn't matter if I saw him win or loose that race. K was the way to go from that point on after a few chats and investigation</TD></TR></TABLE>

So, you want a K-motor so you can swing from Chad's *******?

There is a lot more to building a racecar than just the engine package - and with a higher weight, the K-engines arent going to be as good under braking and they'll be harder on front tires. The K-engine gearing is much better, and there's also the benefit of running a 100% OEM engine too. Each has its benefits.

 

I already Have a K motor in my car, was done about 1.5yrs ago and I just started HPDEs and solo with it over the last year.

No need to put that kind of stress on Chad's *******.

I understand there is more to racing than just a motor. It's more about the driver than anything when it comes down to it.. .

Okay, no more K vs B series discussion for me.. .

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A blog.. with predictions... from a former racer... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Former H1 racer ... I thought you'd get that hint, but here it is:

http://roadracegeek.blogspot.com/

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Now let’s look it the National perspective. Hartanto put the hurt on the entire Honda Challenge field at Mid-Ohio. Chad Slagg smoked him at every start. But shortly after that, it was all Andrie all the time. They were the men to beat at Mid-Ohio last September. And they were both running the newer Honda K-series engines. Bernardo runs a K also and is usually as fast or faster than Andrie on the West Coast, but Bernardo had to miss Nationals this year (he had trouble finding umbrella girls at the last minute, or something). All of this seemed to confirm the general feeling in H1 that the K-series engine is the bullet to have, and that the B-series was on the way out.

Enter Michael Lee. Michael used to run a Spec Miata during a dark period of questionable sexual orientation. When his Spec blowed-up and he was looking at the big picture, he decided that Honda Challenge was the place to be. (HC cars are cooler, significantly faster, the drivers are funnier and are generally much more heterosexual.) So he bought Ryan Flaherty’s B-powered H1 Integra. The car was a proven, well-sorted mount with a good race history. Michael’s problem last year was that every part that was about to fail eventually did and it waited until the day he bought it to do so. He spent the season becoming “one” with the car and fixing ****.

Undeterred by a disastrous finishing record, Michael still loaded the car up and sent it to the NASA Nationals in September. Michael is a racer. And the best of the best were headed for Ohio. As it turned out, the mild-mannered taxman from Bakersfield California ran in the top five most of the week. When the last checkered flag dropped, he had passed all the rest of the regions had to offer to finish second behind Andrie.

In the off-season Internet rules arguments that followed, Lee was used as THE example of why the B-series was still a viable, well-classed engine choice for H1. Lee was a hero to many a B-series loyalist. But all that ended the day Bernardo Martinez let Michael take his K24 powered HASport Integra for a spin at Buttonwillow. Lee’s mind was made up. He was going K.

Looking forward to this year’s Nationals then, it is a safe be that all the front-runners will be running K’s. Unless we find an engine-builder and driver combo that really wants to make a splash, the top 4-5 cars will likely be K-series.

The good news is the B-series engines all have a much better home, now, in H2. Stay tuned…
</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

Just because the b-motors have a more viable opportunity to be competitive in the new "H2" class, does not mean they are in any way dead or uncomptetitive in H1.

 

I agree, that B series can still be competitive. However, like Bernardo said, it has to be at min weight. The problem with the current rule is only selected chassis can be made to meet the current weight.

K series is much faster than last year. Lots of development has gone into it and people are finding way to get faster even under the current rule.

Like RJ said, there are penalties. Weight is a big factor. Last race was the first time I was experiencing brake problem after almost 2 season without any brakes issue. this year will be even more so since I'm moving to K24. I know have to weigh at 2480 lbs, after 30 lbs for cage penalty.

 

I just want to know when HCV is coming. Honda Challenge Vintage, with some 600's or some CVCC's.




I by no means think the B is a dead but I think it will be interesting to see what happens with the K's and the B's. Little things here and there are going to add up. I think it will be great to see what people will do with both motors to keep the competitive. Now back to HCV!

 

yeah HCV would rock.

 

Not to criticize Michael Lee or anything, but I thought at least one of the times he came in second was because Chad and Jason had contact that put them both off track, allowing Michael to pass. Am I mistaken?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stinkycheezmonky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not to criticize Michael Lee or anything, but I thought at least one of the times he came in second was because Chad and Jason had contact that put them both off track, allowing Michael to pass. Am I mistaken?</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, you're not. However, I have serious doubts as to whether or not I could have kept Michael or Kevin H behind me for the duration of the race. (They were both MOVING.) Although I know he won't admit this, Chad was definitely slowing both Kevin and myself down for whatever reason. This allowed Michael to catch up, then essentially pass by Kevin before the finish. (If Kevin and I could have gotten by Chad sooner, I know we would have been able to pass Andrie after his close call with Zephyr. With that said, I do not believe we could have kept him behind us for the duration, though.)

P.S. The B series is definitely not dead. Because I have some inside intel, I have a feeling that many folks will be very surprised come next month at VIR full

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Back in Black &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
P.S. The B series is definitely not dead. Because I have some inside intel, I have a feeling that many folks will be very surprised come next month at VIR full
</TD></TR></TABLE>


I agree with that. And I think I know the intel you are talking about.

 

B series this and th at, how about H series? I think that will be the dark horse.

 

K-series is a proven powerplant in Honda Challenge. But, I firmly believe that if a B-series were to be competitive in HC, it would need to be over 1.8 liters. I also believe that a B-series engine can still be competitive. But after all the $$$ necessary to make it competitive, it might cost as much as a stock K-series engine anyway.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andrie Hartanto &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">B series this and th at, how about H series? I think that will be the dark horse.</TD></TR></TABLE>