I've been doing some reading in the roadcourse forums and some archived topics including a discussion on Non-VTEC engines and their potential on the roadcourse.

I have a 91 CRX Si, that has a recently rebuilt D16A6 with a ZC SOHC non-VTEC head, Intake and DC Header. I am planning on attending as many Autox events in the upcoming year with this relativley (sp?) stock engine.

However, I am looking forward to eventually attending some open track events and possibly some HPDE events.

While the D16A6 is fine for auto x, it lacks for an actual track. While it is still far off, I would like to see if I could pick up and engine and take my time rebuilding it until I am ready to drop it in.

My question is this - (and if you have any better search "terms" to use for my education, please let me know) - On a roadcourse, is it better to have low end torque and pull through the corners (a la B18 a/b's) or high revving high strung engines like the B16a? Another possible option (since I have a spare D16 A6) is to build a SC prepped D16 and slap on a JRSC.

I still intend the car to see the streets, but would like to be able to hit an event and have fun - I don't have to actually win or anything - I just want to get out and drive without feeling like my car is struggling to pull on a slightly elevated straight.

Please chime in.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RSZero1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">On a roadcourse, is it better to have low end torque and pull through the corners (a la B18 a/b's) or high revving high strung engines like the B16a?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have made a number of posts in which I wax poetic of my fondness for the non-VTEC B-series engines. I've had a B18b and a B20b in my car as well as an LS/VTEC so I feel I have a well experienced opinion on the matter.

"The answer" is: it all depends...

Tighter tracks will favor torque.
Longer tracks favor top end.
Broad torque curves tend to be easier to drive and more forgiving.
Higher, narrower power is more demanding and some say more rewarding.
Torquey engines can do "alright" with less favorably geared, base transmissions.
Higher reving, narrow powered engines (like the B16) are a disaster without proper gearing (i.e., a close ratio gearbox)

You get the idea...

I am in love with my B20. And I really liked my B18b, which saw duty both on the street and the track. The LS/VTEC also saw double duty, but I never liked it as much as the non-VTECs. It DID make more power, but I didn't like the curve as much nor the extra RPM needed to take advantage of the better breathing. Make no mistake, the VTEC head is a better breathing head and will produce more power. I just prefer the value and driveability of the non-VTEC engines.

NASA's new rules for H2 should be a telling experiment this year. I will be running a stock B20, and I know there will be a number of guys planning to run stock B16s at the same weight. (Rules are here: http://www.nasaproracing.com/r...e.pdf) Both engines make a great swap in an EF or CRX. It'll be interesting to have this conversation a year from now...

In the end, I think it is a matter of personal prefernce. You will have a much better car than you do now, whichever you choose.

Here's a dyno chart of a B16 vs. my B20 (in yellow). Both engines were tunned by Hondata at Shawn Church's dyno. Both have a header and a cold air intake.

 

Hi Thawley, glad to see you respond on this question. I very much see why you would be inlove with the B20, I had actually been preached the value and fun of this engine by a very close friend.

After looking at the charts I have to ask a couple of questions -

First off, which tranny combo did you end up using with the B18 and the B20?
Secondly, I just noticed you are in CA as well, how the heck do you get by with a B20 on the street in CA? (PM me if you can't post answer here) That is the biggest drawback for me, knowing my car will still see street duty.

The only way I can think of but would have to spend a bit of cash to do, is drop in LS, BAR cert said LS, then swap out LS for B20...?

Edit: Oh and am I incorrect in assuming that an SC'd D16 would behave similarly to an LS? Gearing differences? I seem to recall seeing a dyno chart of a JRSC and thinking how similar it was.


Modified by RSZero1 at 11:10 PM 12/24/2006

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RSZero1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">After looking at the charts I have to ask a couple of questions -

First off, which tranny combo did you end up using with the B18 and the B20?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have always used the basic LS gearbox with 4.40 final drive until this season... At the beginning of '06 I got a close ratio YS-1 from an early GSR. The final drive is still 4.40. The YS-1 is better as is the ACT flywheel that went in at the same time. But I got almost two seasons of fun out of the LS box before it got beat to death. When it needed a rebuild, that's when I went looking for a tricker box. I still don't have a LSD. Hoping to get one in for 2007.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Secondly, I just noticed you are in CA as well, how the heck do you get by with a B20 on the street in CA? (PM me if you can't post answer here) That is the biggest drawback for me, knowing my car will still see street duty.

The only way I can think of but would have to spend a bit of cash to do, is drop in LS, BAR cert said LS, then swap out LS for B20...?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I did the full on, ***-kissing BAR thing with the B18. Got a legit referee sticker and everything. (We wrote about it in SCC, I think.) But the car became a full race car/trailer trash long before the B20 went in, so I never had it smogged again. I would think you ought to be able to get a JDM B20 thru BAR as long as it has the LS type manifold and all the USDM smog stuff. The only problem might be if they keep track of the serial numbers on the blocks. The block "codes" all say B20b in Japan. But if BAR knows the difference between US serial numbers and JDM, you could be in trouble. The BAR refs are pretty sharp and have seen every trick in the book. Might be best to buy me a new B20 and I'll give you my old B18...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Edit: Oh and am I incorrect in assuming that an SC'd D16 would behave similarly to an LS? Gearing differences? I seem to recall seeing a dyno chart of a JRSC and thinking how similar it was.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You gotta speak English. I don't know what the hell SC'd and JRSC mean...

 

SC = supercharger/d
JRSC = Jackson Racing supercharger

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RSZero1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Edit: Oh and am I incorrect in assuming that an SC'd D16 would behave similarly to an LS? Gearing differences? I seem to recall seeing a dyno chart of a JRSC and thinking how similar it was.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

My 93 DX hatch w/99 LS vs 93 Si Hatch with a JRSC 7psi were dead even.

 

Did you prefer one over the other for any reason?

 

The only reason i ask about the supercharger is as mentioned, I have a fresh rebuilt D16A6 and a spare that I can build/play with - direct swap, etc. so I liken it to the path of least resistance and as you mention for the B18, this is the "everyday" SOHC honda engine with plentiful cheap parts.

And I may just take you up on the B20 for B18 deal if you're serious. I would just have to justify it to wife after rebuilding the D, but I am interested - we'll talk more about it PM.

 

You need to understand the role that both torque and gearing play in acceleration. Read this article. I think you'll find it helpful in explaining how the ability to retain torque at high RPMs is relevant.

 

I believe you might have issues reffing a B20 as it is from a different vehicle class.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by allyourapex &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I believe you might have issues reffing a B20 as it is from a different vehicle class.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is true. A CRV is classed as an SUV so BAR won't allow it in a car. Another reason why CA Smog is lame.

AB 1870 passed, so we're in for even more BS at the smog stations.

 

Details on AB 1870 please. That's why I'm not doing a B20 anytime soon and why I asked Thawley about his.

 

The jist of it is this:

AB 1870 requires a visible smoke test to be incorporated as part of smog check
inspections. Smoking vehicles will no longer be able to pass a smog check
inspection. Any visible smoke emanating from the tailpipe or from under the
hood will constitute an inspection failure.

While it's not a bad idea in theory, it opens the door to allow a subjective decision to be made by the smog tester as to weather or not you pass. What is quantified as "smoke". If the smog tester wants to make a few bucks off of you will he see smoke and fail you? It's just another nail in the coffin IMO. Either the car passes emissions or it doesn't, but now they're adding more BS to the testing procedure .

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The jist of it is this:

AB 1870 requires a visible smoke test to be incorporated as part of smog check
inspections. Smoking vehicles will no longer be able to pass a smog check
inspection. Any visible smoke emanating from the tailpipe or from under the
hood will constitute an inspection failure.

While it's not a bad idea in theory, it opens the door to allow a subjective decision to be made by the smog tester as to weather or not you pass. What is quantified as "smoke". If the smog tester wants to make a few bucks off of you will he see smoke and fail you? It's just another nail in the coffin IMO. Either the car passes emissions or it doesn't, but now they're adding more BS to the testing procedure . </TD></TR></TABLE>

Aside from the obvious stupidity of allowing a smog tech to make a judgement call, does anyone else think the average smog tech isn't smart enough to know the difference between actual smoke, and the water vapor that will come out of an exahust that was allowed to cool in the parking lot after driving to the station?

 

Leave the D16 in it and put in on the track. If you are learning how to drive, it will serve you best to learn with less hp and then step up. Also, since you aren't really racing, what does it matter if you can go 1/2 a second faster because you simply have more hp. Spend the money on a good set of rubber and suspension. Worry about the hp later. Oh, I almost forgot, HAVE FUN AT IT!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GBRacing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Leave the D16 in it and put in on the track. </TD></TR></TABLE>
While this is certainly sound advice, it isn't really what the thread is about.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by clemsonhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My 93 DX hatch w/99 LS vs 93 Si Hatch with a JRSC 7psi were dead even. </TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Did you prefer one over the other for any reason?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not really. Other than the whine of the supercharger I probably wouldn't buy another LS. I should've got the B20...no emissions in SC.