After 2, 3 years in auto-x, I think I am at point where I have to start looking for some different kind of fun.
One of the disappointing factors with Auto-x has been the Seat time you get, which I think is less considering the amout of time and money one have to spent preparing the car, taking the car to the event, working at the event etc.

Anyways, recently I had the oppertunity to drive a Kart (non shifter kart) for a brief period and I think I am getting hooked onto it.
Questions

1- What is the kind of beginer karts? Considering whatever little experince I have with in HPDE's , Auto-x etc, is Shifter karts are Ok to begin with?
2- Do you normally buy a used or a new one. Ex. Is there a lot of price difference
3- What are the friendly kart sites/forums you all hang out ? I think it's Ok to post other site names considering we don't discuss Karts in Honda-tech?


4- Now, a subjective question to people who have done both. What's your opinion about the ' FUN FACTOR' in auto-x vs Karts

thanks guys

 

Do a search, there has been some discussion here. Also check ekartingnews.com (I think), that's the big karting forum.

For your questions:
1. Shifter karts are kind of the top tier of karts (250cc ones are monsters I believe, 125cc ones slightly less so). TAG karts and ROTAX are more beginner-oriented I believe, though I have very little experience myself.
2. You'd probably want a used one to start, they are cheaper.
4. I find very little satisfaction in autoxing. Tracking, tons but not autoxing. Karting, on the other hand... I've been seriously considering selling my track car to pick up a decent kart. I don't think you'll find a more engaging or visceral automotive experience (and MY experience is in rental non-shifter karts).

 

Now this is more my arena! Some clarification:

1. Karting is wheel to wheel racing. You can Auto-x, but it is primarily wheel to wheel racing. The driving line may not always be the best line or the fastest.

2. Auto-x is racing against time. The driving line is usually the fastest.

For beginner karts, there really isn't a class considered to be beginner. You have different classes in each type of kart which allows rookies and advanced drivers to race. There are discussions about the kt100 vs. shifters that will always go around. The kt100 is a single gear setup that has a massive support system while the shifter kart has the obvious shifting requirement.

http://www.ekartingnews.com

An excellent read on that site would be the New To Karting section:

New To Karting

An extremely helpful website that can get you pointed in the right direction for what your needs are. The best thing you can do at this point in time is to go to the local kart track in your area. See what the locals are running and ask questions:

1. How much was the kart?
2. Did you buy the kart as a roller (no engine) or comlete?
3. How readily availible are parts?
4. What is the maintenance on the kart?
5. Is the motor a sealed spec motor?

The list of questions will grow as you start speaking to a kart racer. As far as my experience, my kart was purchased as a roller and I then source my engine package.

The subjective question answer: I have not done both, but the level of performance from a kart (shifter in my instance) cannot be met by most cars out there. The ratio of tire contact patch vs. kart width vs. weight comes out to to very high lateral G forces and amazing acceleration times.

Racing at the club level is a fraction of the cost for tracking a car at a road course (don't know prices for auto-x) and you get massive amounts of track time. You will be tired before you use up your time for the first few track sessions.

Buy good safety gear. The current helmet requirement is Snell 2000.

There is no top tier type of kart. Every kart type has their class and place in kart racing.

Superkarts are the big boys of the sport: 250cc
TaG (Touch and Go) karts are very popular worldwide.
Stock Moto (stock cr125) is gaining popularity.
Formula 125/Modified 125 ...I don't know too much. Just know that they run.
ICC karts are very popular worldwide.

You have other karts as well, Rotax, Rotax D2, 80cc, 4 stroke, oval, dirt, and the list goes on.

Then you have the types of track. Sprint tracks, road courses, oval dirt, and oval paved. I myself will be doing a season at a Sprint track here locally to me.

Kinsmen Kart Club

I hope this discussion takes off, karting is always open for new racers.

Mario-

 

FWIW, in my fairly limited viewing of ekartingnews forums, most of the people there seem to be HEAVY supporters of starting out in a TAG type over the shifters. I saw a lot of harping about that on there.

 

you also might want to check racingjunk.com they usually have some decent carts

 

http://www.woodbridgekartclub.com

They have a great forum and classifieds section. They also have great beginner write ups. The WKC race karts on car race tracks. 125+cc shifters are not for beginners on the big tracks.

 

1- What is the kind of beginer karts? Considering whatever little experince I have with in HPDE's , Auto-x etc, is Shifter karts are Ok to begin with? No on the shifter Karts its not for beginners and depending where you live you probably just be racing yourself or one other competitor. Your best bet is either Kt100, animal class, or Rotax Tag class. First comes first go to your local track and see what is the biggest class and go from there.
2- Do you normally buy a used or a new one. Ex. Is there a lot of price difference If you have the money buy new, if not buy used and you can get a bunch of spare parts usually whihc is helpful. I have a 2 cycle enduro Kart if you intersted PM me. I suggest your rent before you buy you can rent at many tracks. I do at Beaverun and have had a lot of fun and its competitive and cheap.


4- Now, a subjective question to people who have done both. What's your opinion about the ' FUN FACTOR' in auto-x vs Karts I love karting and probably do it my whole life, its alot of fun and typically low cost.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by trigun7469 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1- What is the kind of beginer karts? Considering whatever little experince I have with in HPDE's , Auto-x etc, is Shifter karts are Ok to begin with? No on the shifter Karts its not for beginners and depending where you live you probably just be racing yourself or one other competitor. Your best bet is either Kt100, animal class, or Rotax Tag class. First comes first go to your local track and see what is the biggest class and go from there.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

This isn't necessarily all true. I am a beginner and have jumped right into a 80cc shifter. What will make this statement more truthful would be if the classes offered by the tracks that you wish to race at do not have a shifter class.

There is a higher leaning curve because of shifting and managing the powerband/pipe, but that should not deter someone from entering a shifter. If you are mechnically inclined any kart should fit the bill provided there are classes for it at the tracks you will race at. Beating the dead horse here.

M-

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mario_D &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This isn't necessarily all true. I am a beginner and have jumped right into a 80cc shifter. What will make this statement more truthful would be if the classes offered by the tracks that you wish to race at do not have a shifter class.

There is a higher leaning curve because of shifting and managing the powerband/pipe, but that should not deter someone from entering a shifter. If you are mechnically inclined any kart should fit the bill provided there are classes for it at the tracks you will race at. Beating the dead horse here.

M-</TD></TR></TABLE>

Mario kudos to you, not sure what track you run and your compeition but usually it is not that easy. The couple tracks that I have been typically those who are in the wrong class ruin it for most people. For examples there was a individual that was new to karting, the entire season they were slow and got into wrecks almost every session. This person had the top of the line equipment but when your in a field of 20 or more karts it helps to have expirence and control. It came to a point where they were to blame for almost all incidents on track and at one point there was some fighting, which is not good when there are young karters watching. The individual made it almost a year and quit and sold their stuff. Anybody who shows up with a Kart can race which is different then most forms of racing, so a lot of times people show up with equipment that is unsafe and lack expirence and it ruin the fun. Mario you are a lucky person but for the rest of the crowd I would hate to lead this guy into that ignorant direction when I have seen and heard about more horror stories. Like I mentioned above I suggested renting a Kart and going to the local track as a first step and I am sure any veteran karter would agree.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by trigun7469 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Mario kudos to you, not sure what track you run and your compeition but usually it is not that easy. The couple tracks that I have been typically those who are in the wrong class ruin it for most people. For examples there was a individual that was new to karting, the entire season they were slow and got into wrecks almost every session. This person had the top of the line equipment but when your in a field of 20 or more karts it helps to have expirence and control. It came to a point where they were to blame for almost all incidents on track and at one point there was some fighting, which is not good when there are young karters watching. The individual made it almost a year and quit and sold their stuff. Anybody who shows up with a Kart can race which is different then most forms of racing, so a lot of times people show up with equipment that is unsafe and lack expirence and it ruin the fun. Mario you are a lucky person but for the rest of the crowd I would hate to lead this guy into that ignorant direction when I have seen and heard about more horror stories. Like I mentioned above I suggested renting a Kart and going to the local track as a first step and I am sure any veteran karter would agree.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well said. I hope that the OP doesn't "jump in" to anything without doing due diligence. Be it TaG, shifter, Rotax, KT100, oval, etc, just do it right. Seat time is a must and product support is a must.

M-

 

Well said trigun

Also a beginner has to consider the learning curve of maintaining and preparing a kart. Beginner classes of kart racing usually require less maintenance and preperation allowing for more time on track and less money spent on parts/rebuilds, etc.
<U>Find a mentor</U> before ya spend the money on a kart, and go to the track.

 

As a long time karter I'd suggest starting out in a TAG class. I personally own one that I bought after I got out of ICC.

IMHO ICC is just too expensive to be compeditive in. When I was under sponsorship it was managable but privately you need to have alot of cash. There are also lower shifter classes like the moto classes that can be cheaper. The difference is a moto engine stock will put down 30ish HP vs an ICC engine at 45ish HP.

Shifter karts also tend to cover up alot of beginner mistakes, because they feel fast and have alot of power. Generally speaking tho I can put my TAG within 1 second of a moto shifter kart on a kart track.

I personally came up from ICA to ICC so I had a few years in a single speed, and I can say that I've rarely seen a really fast ICC driver without single speed experience. Otherwise you miss out on how to carry momentum and how to break correctly in a Kart and how to flex the chassis mid corner etc etc. Shifter drivers tend to just downshift and power thru it.

Be warned, karting is dangerous. You should be in great physical shape and prepared to get hurt. Over the years I've had 3 cracked ribs and seperated one, broke my collar bone, tore ligaments in my knee and ankle, and come home with a black and blue ring around my ribs. Of course this is more Wheel to wheel injury but still, one careless move is all you need and there's no nice pad of car around you to take the brunt of it.

 

Good move. Auto-x is weak, IMO. I've been to a few with a friend of mine and was far from impressed. Far too little track time for the amount of time you spend standing around doing nothing. Equal equipment? No way. When you are on the track, you're racing against the clock (which is fun, but nothing like the thrill of going wheel to wheel), and you don't come anywhere close to using all of the gears unless you've got some 12" rims.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
One of the disappointing factors with Auto-x has been the Seat time you get, which I think is less considering the amout of time and money one have to spent preparing the car, taking the car to the event, working at the event etc. </TD></TR></TABLE>

See above.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
1- What is the kind of beginer karts? Considering whatever little experince I have with in HPDE's , Auto-x etc, is Shifter karts are Ok to begin with?</TD></TR></TABLE>

This type of question is really hard to answer over the Internet. The biggest factor will be the class structure at your local club(s). If they have a class in place that is geared towards Novices (like Nor Cal used to have), that would be a really good class to consider. The fact that you have previous driving experience means that you will probably be a front-runner in the Novice class...if it exists.

It used to be that nobody started in a shifter kart. They are seriously fast karts. An 80cc shifter will hit 60 in under 5 seconds. A 125 shifter in around 4 seconds. That's a lot of power and although you might be able to "handle it" by yourself, throw yourself in the middle of traffic and you can see accidents happen. There is a lot going on!

It may be (like at the track that my boy Mario and I race at) that there isn't a Novice class in place. If that is the case, hook up with some experienced people who run there and see what they recommend. Talk to some track officials and ask them where most of the new guys are starting.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
2- Do you normally buy a used or a new one. Ex. Is there a lot of price difference </TD></TR></TABLE>

Karts, like most cars, lose probably 30% of their value the minute you take it off the showroom floor. As a novice, you will crash and break stuff. That stings a lot less if you're using an older kart with cheaper and more readily available parts. In short, no, I never recommend a novice to buy a new kart. You will be less hesitant about pushing the limits if you're not constantly thinking about the huge amount of money you just dropped on the kart.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
3- What are the friendly kart sites/forums you all hang out ? I think it's Ok to post other site names considering we don't discuss Karts in Honda-tech?</TD></TR></TABLE>

http://www.ekartingnews.com/forum.php

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
4- Now, a subjective question to people who have done both. What's your opinion about the ' FUN FACTOR' in auto-x vs Karts</TD></TR></TABLE>

I only went to auto-x's to help a friend, so I cannot comment directly on that, but that same friend got into karting because of the reasons I mentioned above...ie, too much standing around, not enough track time.

I raced karts heavily from 1995 to 2000. The wheel-to-wheel battles (in equal equipment) have been some of the most memorable experiences of my life.

I've only hurt myself bad once (I've run about 60 races) and that move was self-inflicted. Kamikaze pass that I backed out of at the last minute. Had a stiff neck for a few days. In general, you are what you is. You drive like a jackass...you get hurt. Rib injuries are generally a result of inadequate rib protection (cheap rib vest or no rib vest at all) or poor handling (kart hops from too much grip...this really punishes your ribs).

I was disillusioned for awhile and wasted a bunch of money modding a car that I was still making payments on (my 2000 Civic). So, I went the project car route with the CRX with slightly less disillusionment. I sold it when I got my RX-7 (another stupid move). I constantly worried about blowing it up or getting myself killed in it. Yeah...I smoked that Saleen Mustang on the freeway. So what? In the end, it was not worth it any more. Sold it, bought a truck, got back into shifter kart racing. Best move I've made in the last 5 years.

Sonny

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sonny &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sold it, bought a truck, got back into shifter kart racing. Best move I've made in the last 5 years. </TD></TR></TABLE>

This is right where I'm at. Just a little hard to make that committment to get rid of my baby

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stinkycheezmonky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

This is right where I'm at. Just a little hard to make that committment to get rid of my baby </TD></TR></TABLE>

Do it. You won't miss her.

Sonny

 

Out of curiousity, how much does a weekend typically run cost-wise?

 

When I ran the big track at Infineon/Sears Pt, it cost me:

1. Track fee $150.00
2. NCK 1 day membership $10.00
3. Transponder rental $25.00
4. Gas 110/91 mix $35.00
5. 2 Stroke oil $10.00

Total: $230.00

I ran one 20 minute practice session and 2 20 minute heats. I still have gas left in my container so the cost of gas will not always be that much. Also, the tires I have are good for several events. This was a road racing event were costs are more than a sprint race.

Sonny can elaborate on the costs of a sprint race better than I.

m-

 

Alot of the costs really depend on what level you're planning to race at. Generally track time is the cheapest bit.

An average ICC race weekend would see me go through three or four sets of tires. ICC races on very soft compound tires. A factory works engine needs rebuilding twice a season if you don't hurt it. A chassis will wear out in a season. By wear out I mean it won't be as responsive, you can run it longer but it won't be compeditive.

My TAG runs a medium compound tire and I can usually run an entire practice weekend on one set before they start to crap out. I generally keep a worn set for trackdays and practice sessions and a race set that's fresher.
A TAG engine can go 2 seasons without a rebuild if you are nice to it.

As to injuries, only the rib injuries were my fault, even with a ribtect vest and seat. I got them because I allowed myself to be squeezed over the apex curbing and got bounced a foot or so and was a couple inches out of my seat when it hooked up again and the lip of the seat trashed my ribs as I slid back down. The rest of my injuries were caused by being hit. I broke my collarbone when someone forgot what the brakes were for trying to take me inside and got under and flipped my kart on top of me. I tore my knee up after getting punted into the hay bales and the corner of one got between my leg and the steering column and forced my leg in the wrong direction.

That's not to say that you're going to get hurt. I was racing national level ICC and it's very very compeditive and people are apt to take risks. But the possibility of getting injured is always present and if it happens you just need to know that theres no car there for padding. Rubbing is racing doesn't really fly in karts, wheel to wheel contact can toss you on your head and pavement hurts. It just takes one moment of lost concentration on your part or on the part of the newb behind you or just eating too much curbing.

It's all worth it tho, 125+mph at Cal Speedway in a kart is incredible

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mario_D &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When I ran the big track at Infineon/Sears Pt, it cost me:

1. Track fee $150.00
2. NCK 1 day membership $10.00
3. Transponder rental $25.00
4. Gas 110/91 mix $35.00
5. 2 Stroke oil $10.00

Total: $230.00

I ran one 20 minute practice session and 2 20 minute heats. I still have gas left in my container so the cost of gas will not always be that much. Also, the tires I have are good for several events. This was a road racing event were costs are more than a sprint race.

Sonny can elaborate on the costs of a sprint race better than I.

m-</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wow thats expensive the most expensive I have seen is $50 track fee. tires are typically $200 new and can last along time if you are smooth.

I also want to mention weight in height, it is very very very important that you have a seat that fits and is positioned correctly. That can make a major difference in your speed and comfort level. Also consider what rules fit your height and weight the best, I am a big guy and the Rotax class regionally fit my weight they also run a big boy class.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by trigun7469 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Wow thats expensive the most expensive I have seen is $50 track fee. tires are typically $200 new and can last along time if you are smooth.

I also want to mention weight in height, it is very very very important that you have a seat that fits and is positioned correctly. That can make a major difference in your speed and comfort level. Also consider what rules fit your height and weight the best, I am a big guy and the Rotax class regionally fit my weight they also run a big boy class.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The key thing about this cost was running @ the big track. Road racing is a bit more. Sprint racing is like you said 40-50 per race.

m-

 

You know the old adage...speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?

Roadracing is the most expensive form of kart racing simply because it usually costs the club A LOT of money to rent the track.

Sprint racing is significantly cheaper and is generally a more popular form of kart racing. The top speeds aren't as high, but since you gear for top speed (ie, 13,000 rpm in 6th gear at the end of the longest straight), your kart usually accelerates much harder at a sprint track.

Typical road race:
Entry Fee: $150
Race Gas: $40 (5 gallons of mixed 110 octane)
Tires/Brakes: $67 (this makes the assumption that you run a $160 set of tires for 3 races and a $40 set of pads for 3 races). $67 is the cost if you average the cost over 3 races.

Sprint Racing
Entry Fee: $40
Race Gas: $15
Tires/Brakes: $67 (see above)

Sonny

 

Same here...wasn't getting the seat time/work ratio that I wanted so after 3 years I ventured into karting last year. Started with a PTK/CRG chassis/125 Rotax motor and joined a local circuit. 3 months later, I sold the CRG frame and upgraded to an 06 Tonykart Venox. Nothing different just prettier to look at...once I dialed the kart to my driving style, from out of 23 peeps in my class, I was consistently finishing in the top 10 and even podiumed twice. It's really difficult to compete with 17 & 18 yr old chaps who practices 2x a week and get all the support.. Just like any form of racing, you have to put in the hours. Rotax is one of the most popular and fastest growing class worldwide.. You race with spec tires, sealed motor and depending on what Rotax class you're racing, a weight minimum. Here's a normal raceday cost... (2x 15 min practice run, 1x 5-7 lap qualifying, 1x 10min prefinal race, 1x 15min final race) :
1. Entry fee, $75
2. New set of Mojo Tires (optional), $175
* You can actually use a brand new set 1 race and 3 or 4 practice sessions, maybe more...
3. 3 gallons of race gas (leaded 98 octane) $25
4. 2 stroke Motul oil $8

I still try to go AutoXing but will probably limit myself to attending local nat'l events(Atwater) or (Packwood), regionals in Reno...or Amer. AutoX series held in Atwater ($25=5x runs)

Beware, wheel to wheel racing is very addicting