header design, big bends over tight?
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From: Albuquerque, NM, USA
header design, big bends over tight?
I just happen to have a very very good fabricator as a neighbor. He has welded all his life and built his tube frame GTE Porsche 914. I'm wanting him to build me a custom header for N/A B16 SCCA ITE car. I showed him RMF drag design to give him an idea of what's selling for big bucks in the Honda world. He said it was beautiful other than he would have done big bends.
I've also heard from another fabricator that you want a long straight tube out of the exhaust port, and bend as late as possible. He said that was more important than the tight/slight bend theory.
Randys drag header looks like the long straight tube idea is best. it makes 3-4whp over his block hugger design so I've heard.
My neighbor built my dads headers for his SCCA F Prod BMW 2002, and gained 6 HP to the wheels over his previous header. That's a lot considering the car makes just over 100 to the wheels.
Should I have my neighbor try to replicate popular "already done" styles, or have his do his own thing?
Opinions???
I've also heard from another fabricator that you want a long straight tube out of the exhaust port, and bend as late as possible. He said that was more important than the tight/slight bend theory.
Randys drag header looks like the long straight tube idea is best. it makes 3-4whp over his block hugger design so I've heard.
My neighbor built my dads headers for his SCCA F Prod BMW 2002, and gained 6 HP to the wheels over his previous header. That's a lot considering the car makes just over 100 to the wheels.
Should I have my neighbor try to replicate popular "already done" styles, or have his do his own thing?
Opinions???
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: Albuquerque, NM, USA
Re: header design, big bends over tight? (Ekasey)
Goog point, but at least he uses Burns collectors. 
And uses your calculations, most of the time he says.
So Kasey, if you weren't you, and lived in New Mexico, who would you have build your headers?
Any truth to either of the fabricators ramblings?
And uses your calculations, most of the time he says. So Kasey, if you weren't you, and lived in New Mexico, who would you have build your headers?
Any truth to either of the fabricators ramblings?
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From: Portland, OR
Re: header design, big bends over tight? (Ekasey)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ekasey »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Fabricators are not header designers, end of story.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Wow, that is a pretty general statement. So if you are a fabricator you can't design a header?
Wow, that is a pretty general statement. So if you are a fabricator you can't design a header?
OG Fabricator
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
I think you get what you pay for.
A purpose-built header will use the best
methods possible within the confines of your car.
That said, the less number of bends, the better. Tighter bends impede flow.
There are so many factors, primary size,length,4-2-1,4-1, collector size,taper...
You could have any of these kill any gains given by proper bend design...
A purpose-built header will use the best
methods possible within the confines of your car.
That said, the less number of bends, the better. Tighter bends impede flow.
There are so many factors, primary size,length,4-2-1,4-1, collector size,taper...
You could have any of these kill any gains given by proper bend design...
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B A N N E D
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: Fontucky, ca
Re: header design, big bends over tight? (MatHadder)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MatHadder »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Wow, that is a pretty general statement. So if you are a fabricator you can't design a header?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Is that right???????
Wow, that is a pretty general statement. So if you are a fabricator you can't design a header?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Is that right???????
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 838
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From: Fakeville, USA, USA
Re: header design, big bends over tight? (Ekasey)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ekasey »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Fabricators are not header designers, end of story.</TD></TR></TABLE>
MOST IGNORANT POST EVER
Everyone point and laugh at this retard. HAHAHA, dumbass. You should be kicked off the planet for such a stupid comment.
MOST IGNORANT POST EVER
Everyone point and laugh at this retard. HAHAHA, dumbass. You should be kicked off the planet for such a stupid comment.
moderator emeritus
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Cantonment, FL
Re: header design, big bends over tight? (F20Cteg)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by F20Cteg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">MOST IGNORANT POST EVER
Everyone point and laugh at this retard. HAHAHA, dumbass. You should be kicked off the planet for such a stupid comment.</TD></TR></TABLE>
dumbass? ok.......
Everyone point and laugh at this retard. HAHAHA, dumbass. You should be kicked off the planet for such a stupid comment.</TD></TR></TABLE>
dumbass? ok.......
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Charlotte, NC
Re: header design, big bends over tight? (F20Cteg)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by F20Cteg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">MOST IGNORANT POST EVER
Everyone point and laugh at this retard. HAHAHA, dumbass. You should be kicked off the planet for such a stupid comment.</TD></TR></TABLE>
maybe you should do some research on what i do for a living before you make ignorant comments......
Everyone point and laugh at this retard. HAHAHA, dumbass. You should be kicked off the planet for such a stupid comment.</TD></TR></TABLE>
maybe you should do some research on what i do for a living before you make ignorant comments......
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Fakeville, USA, USA
Re: header design, big bends over tight? (Ekasey)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ekasey »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
maybe you should do some research on what i do for a living before you make ignorant comments......</TD></TR></TABLE>
You mean go around critizing people for what YOU can't do. Nice and you get paid for that. Fabricators can't be designers, right.
Why don't you start off by apologizing to the OP and give him some advice that he asked for. You should start by punching some numbers into someone else's software. Right. Oh master of the keyboard.
maybe you should do some research on what i do for a living before you make ignorant comments......</TD></TR></TABLE>
You mean go around critizing people for what YOU can't do. Nice and you get paid for that. Fabricators can't be designers, right.
Why don't you start off by apologizing to the OP and give him some advice that he asked for. You should start by punching some numbers into someone else's software. Right.
Oh master of the keyboard.
Honda-Tech Member
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From: Charlotte, NC
Re: header design, big bends over tight? (F20Cteg)
funny..... guy i already talked to the OP and already ahve something worked out for him
Funny i don't see you doing anything but talking ****.....
Funny i don't see you doing anything but talking ****.....
B A N N E D
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: Fontucky, ca
Re: header design, big bends over tight? (Ekasey)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ekasey »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">funny..... guy i already talked to the OP and already ahve something worked out for him
Funny i don't see you doing anything but talking ****.....</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think what you mean to say is that fabricators don't know the theory behind headers unless they have had experiance making them .But its wrong saying that fabricators are NOT header builders.Because I would say that 90% of the header guys were fabricators first.
Funny i don't see you doing anything but talking ****.....</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think what you mean to say is that fabricators don't know the theory behind headers unless they have had experiance making them .But its wrong saying that fabricators are NOT header builders.Because I would say that 90% of the header guys were fabricators first.
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From: I'm everywhere Focker
Re: header design, big bends over tight? (Ekasey)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ekasey »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Fabricators are not header designers, end of story.</TD></TR></TABLE>
In all honestly, that is a fairly ignorant statement. Why a fabricator can't be capable of viable exhaust design is certainly beyond me.
Fabrication skill with education and advanced study is certainly possible out of one person.
In all honestly, that is a fairly ignorant statement. Why a fabricator can't be capable of viable exhaust design is certainly beyond me.
Fabrication skill with education and advanced study is certainly possible out of one person.
Member
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Houston, Texas, USA
Re: header design, big bends over tight? (RC000E)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RC000E »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In all honestly, that is a fairly ignorant statement. Why a fabricator can't be capable of viable exhaust design is certainly beyond me.
Fabrication skill with education and advanced study is certainly possible out of one person.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I know people make it seem like it is so hard to read books and what not anymore....
Hell you dont even need them with the amazing advances in modern technology you can just buy a computer program and input cam grinds, engine displacement (bore/stroke), combustion chamber cc, compression ratio and tell it where you want your power band and it will tell you the rest
The things that make a perfect header
The proper length of primary, the proper size of primary, the proper length of collector, proper size of collector
After that as long as you keep it to what it says with as little bends as possible you have a perfect header that you didnt have to have "engineered" by a person that can easily make a flaw in their adding or is doing nothing more than putting your numbers in their calculator and charging 60+ an hour for it...
Good places to start, go to http://www.headerdesign.com read for a while get a free calculator that will help you build a header that will be very close to a "engineered" design....
Basic rule of thumb longer = lower rpm, shorter = higher rpm
smaller = more velocity (big low trq bad high end) bigger = more flow ( lower velocity makign less low trq but bigger high end)
-James
Fabrication skill with education and advanced study is certainly possible out of one person.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I know people make it seem like it is so hard to read books and what not anymore....
Hell you dont even need them with the amazing advances in modern technology you can just buy a computer program and input cam grinds, engine displacement (bore/stroke), combustion chamber cc, compression ratio and tell it where you want your power band and it will tell you the rest
The things that make a perfect header
The proper length of primary, the proper size of primary, the proper length of collector, proper size of collector
After that as long as you keep it to what it says with as little bends as possible you have a perfect header that you didnt have to have "engineered" by a person that can easily make a flaw in their adding or is doing nothing more than putting your numbers in their calculator and charging 60+ an hour for it...
Good places to start, go to http://www.headerdesign.com read for a while get a free calculator that will help you build a header that will be very close to a "engineered" design....
Basic rule of thumb longer = lower rpm, shorter = higher rpm
smaller = more velocity (big low trq bad high end) bigger = more flow ( lower velocity makign less low trq but bigger high end)
-James
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 838
Likes: 0
From: Fakeville, USA, USA
Re: header design, big bends over tight? (Ekasey)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ekasey »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">funny..... guy i already talked to the OP and already ahve something worked out for him
Funny i don't see you doing anything but talking ****.....</TD></TR></TABLE>
Only to you. Keyboard master.
Your post was ignorant. Admit it.
Funny i don't see you doing anything but talking ****.....</TD></TR></TABLE>
Only to you. Keyboard master.
Your post was ignorant. Admit it.
Thread Starter
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From: Albuquerque, NM, USA
Re: header design, big bends over tight? (F20Cteg)
Ha Ha! I love this website. Ask a somewhat open ended question, and watch everyone have a pissing contest.
Thanks Kasey (although you don't see it, Kasey helped me a lot) and Rc00e for actually helping.
thanks to everyone else for hating on Kasey.... good times!
Has anyone else here seen a merge collector of any better quality than Burns?
If so, I'd love to see it. I'm so good, I can tell how good they flow just by looking.... just like many others on this board with "eyeball dynos"
Thanks Kasey (although you don't see it, Kasey helped me a lot) and Rc00e for actually helping.
thanks to everyone else for hating on Kasey.... good times!
Has anyone else here seen a merge collector of any better quality than Burns?
If so, I'd love to see it. I'm so good, I can tell how good they flow just by looking.... just like many others on this board with "eyeball dynos"
HT White Ops
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 13,063
Likes: 33
From: Rochester, MN, US
Kasey didn't say that fabricators CAN'T design headers. He just said that being a fabricator doesn't endow you with the knowledge to be a header designer. The skills and knowledge of both areas are separate, thats all. You guys need to relax a little
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Fakeville, USA, USA
Re: (rochesterricer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rochesterricer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Kasey didn't say that fabricators CAN'T design headers. He just said that being a fabricator doesn't endow you with the knowledge to be a header designer. The skills and knowledge of both areas are separate, thats all. You guys need to relax a little </TD></TR></TABLE>
BS, he came right out and bagged on this guys friend.
Still, the OP said that Ekasey helped him, so he isn't a total ***.
</TD></TR></TABLE>BS, he came right out and bagged on this guys friend.
Still, the OP said that Ekasey helped him, so he isn't a total ***.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,666
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Re: (F20Cteg)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by F20Cteg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
BS, he came right out and bagged on this guys friend.
Still, the OP said that Ekasey helped him, so he isn't a total ***.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
loosen up, you`ll live longer
BS, he came right out and bagged on this guys friend.
Still, the OP said that Ekasey helped him, so he isn't a total ***.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
loosen up, you`ll live longer
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 838
Likes: 0
From: Fakeville, USA, USA
Re: (Mykizism)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mykizism »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
loosen up, you`ll live longer</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm 96 now. How much longer do I have?
loosen up, you`ll live longer</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm 96 now. How much longer do I have?
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