Alright guys, I live in Alaska, and with the cold and the snow, the del Sol has been retired for the year. I already replaced the tired D15B7 with a JDM B16A. Big fan of the 10.4:1s, very good at pissing off GSRs. This much power is still not enough. I dynoed it in Virginia, all stock except for the 2.25 catback and the open-element intake. She put down an enemic 141 wheel. Not bad for a 1.6, but we don't live in a world where 141 horsepower is acceptable.

The plan is to keep the car as daily-driveable as is reasonably possible. This is an Auto-X monster, I won my Steet Mod 2 Class, Honda Manufaturer's Class, and Rookie Class all this year. The suspension is sorted, and this car could easily support 260whp between a full GSR brake system swap, and Azenis RT-615s.
The motor is the only thing that is left. I already pulled it out of the car and the Y21 tranny is currently getting re-synchroed and my LSD is getting re-clutched.

Now, this is my criteria. I have a $6000 budget, maybe a little more if I tighten my belt. I plan on using my stock block and dimensions of 81mm X 77.4mm. Stock crank, NOT shaved, I need torque. I have only purchased an Exedy Stage I clutch and a Streetlight 12 lbs. flywheel. All very streetable stuff. The plan, as I have spoken to my engine builder, is something in the neighborhood of a welded on block guard,
Carrillo rods (I found through doing my homework that they're the best, if you KNOW, not think, of better, let me know)
-CP 11.5:1 slugs
-Crower Stage II cams (streetable)
-Crower dual coil valve springs
-Crower titanium valves
-Crower titanium valve retainers
-JG Victor X IM
-No specs on TB size yet, but leaning towards 65mm, it looks sound enough to produce power and torgue, yet still be efficient
-DC Sports 4-1 header with 2.5 collector
-To hell with a cat
-2.5" piping to a 2.5" Flowtech Terminator muffler
-1mm overbore intake valves
-0.5mm overbore exhaust valves
-3 angle valvejob
-milled, ported, and polished PR3 head
-Hondata s300 (I'm a balla, what can I say?)
-RC 310 injectors (unless you can KNOW more appropriate injectors)
-Walbro 255lph fuel pump (unless you KNOW a more appropriate pump)
-Strongly considering a rising rate fuel regulator and high flow fuel filter, any GOOD suggestions gladly welcome.
-MSD 6A ignition system.
-Iridium plugs (already installed)
-Snow Performance NA system water/methanol injection kit

Now for the dream. I have 2 pipe dreams I would absolutely love to come true. Brace yourself, I'm about to expose my ignorance. I want this rig to rev out to 10,000 rpm. I like the length of the motor against 4.40 gears on an autocross, and I can retain a long power curve through first gear, and not have to shift to second during an autocross event. The second is I hate being walked on the highway, and I want some extra "kick." Does anyone KNOW, not think, that this setup could support a direct port nitrous system? If it were to be installed, could the motor reasonably handle a 100 shot with a progressive switch? My engine builder tells me that with the block guard, Carrillo rods, titanium valves and springs, water/methanol, and progressive switch that this is a realistic goal, with the proper tuning, of course. I want to get a second opinion from someone who knows as well or better. Better yet, someone that has attempted/accomplished it.

This is a tall order for a Domino's delivery/ Autocross car, but dammit, its my baby, and I want the most out of her. Looking for 200whp, or as close to as I can yield all motor. Then about 280-300whp with the 100 shot. Please let me know what is real-world and what is just a pipe dream. Oh yeah, and order Domino's, we make bad-*** pizza that I deliver in a 14.7 second del Sol (street tire)


Modified by outtacontrolsol at 12:21 PM 12/4/2006

 

Come on guys, at least tell me if I'm on the right track or not.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by outtacontrolsol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Come on guys, at least tell me if I'm on the right track or not.</TD></TR></TABLE>

im sure you dont want to hear this, but if you want torque you need an 89mm crank. plain and simple.

and if you plan to build a set up around a desired rev limit that high, you can rest assured it will be a lightswitch of a motor. on or off. i bet a b16 at 9800 is making something like 70 ft lbs of tq.

that thing is going to be popping in and out of vtec in first gear as well. think about it.

if it were me and i had 6 grand and i wanted to build an autocross specific car, i would sink my money into a straight non-vtec b20 (550 bucks) get some headwork done, put some crower 404s in it and shoot for 190whp which would yeild something like 145 ftlbs maybe even 150. then put your b16 tranny on it, and it wouldnt hardly feel like a peaky b16, roasting the inside tire at the vtec point, mid turn, the whole way thru the cones.

 

Building a stock stroke b16 for strickly autox duty is not a good idea. A broad torque curve is what is its all about, not a peaky 10,000 rpm motor. I have a b16 in my autoxer and its definitely not the ideal setup. I don't know what your autox's are like but I'm usually anywhere b/w 3000-8000 at a typical evet. A b16 doesn't really make any power until 5000+.

I would do some more research before you buy anything also. Some of the parts you listed are not needed.

Rising rate fuel regulator is for ghetto turbo builds not n/a
oem ignition&gt;msd

 

I would rethink the use of Crower products.
There's much better out there and from what
I've read lately, there durability is questionalbe.
Also, you can do much better in the header department. With the right header, you can pick up an additional 10 hp. Also, why not go 3" from the header on back for extra
performance. I would suggest Buddy Club valve train and cams. Good Luck

 

i came back to re-read the thread to make sure i didnt miss anything and, well, yea....

a 550 dollar straight b20 long block is your ******* friend my man.

 

Do you have to stay N/A?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 87sivtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do you have to stay N/A? </TD></TR></TABLE>

if there is one thing worse than a b16 for autox, its a turbo b16.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xDEFTONESx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

if there is one thing worse than a b16 for autox, its a turbo b16.</TD></TR></TABLE>


Amen!!!

 

Gung Ho N/A. If I wanted a turbo, I'd buy a WRX or an EVO. I like the del Sol. You guys have given me really good food for thought. Just got done reading the thread on Crower Chromoly Retainers, very eye-opening. The B20 has been a strong consideration, but I am so worried about weight. Then again, this is probably one of those instances where the juice is worth the squeeze power/wieght. I am a torque ***** (I got the B16 before I was properly educated, forgive me PLEASE) I am a huge fan of the PR3 head, and with a proper mate to a B20 block with 11.5:1, this could be a murderer, at least in Alaska.
Going to start the hunt for a B20 block tomorrow, I am settled on it. I can sell the entire JDM bottom end up here for $900 easy, everyone wants it. That head and tranny however, is staying right here.
Now for a whole new can of worms. xDeftonesx, I read a lot of your threads, when your not burning people to small flakes of ash, your giving really sound advice, you and Clean Rice, who I'd really like to get input from. You said that a NON-Vtec setup would be best. I have found that Vtec, when tuned PROPER, is a smooth power transition that is neither heard or felt. A guy in my car club in VA has a dad with a 92 NSX. I got to drive it once, and the VTEC was absolutely seemless. My question is, should I tune my VTEC for a smooth, fluent operation, or go straight for the throat and dump a load into the TODA fund and get a VTEC killer setup. Not a very big fan of killing wonderful technology like VTEC, but this is a means to an end. Any feedback is well welcomed.
Thank you for the info so far, you guys are really helping me out.

 

Vtec killers are for an all out drag car. Not for an autoxer that needs power below 8k.

 

1. A light weight crank does not reduce TQ, I really wish guys would get off this train wreck. TQ has absolutely nothing to do with rotational mass.

2. With the lack of TQ your B16 has a 4.7 or 4.9 final drive is going to be your friend.

3. Crower STG II cams will not make power to 10k but are very street-able, tuned correctly the vtec crossover can be near seamless. Skunk2 Stg2 cams seem to be a nice cam for the B16, you could even go with an M22x and possibly get a little more out of it.

4. Your not going to need titanium valves and I am sure that is not what you meant as they are OH MY GOD expensive. Simple ITR intake valves will do. And over size valve are not going to benefit a B16.

5. The Victor X is going to kill any low end TQ your have hopes of making, sticking with a ITR manifold will be sufficient for a B16. If you must have the best you can look into a CNC ported manifold.

6. Why not send you head off to Portflow or another to have your head ported.

7. Ditch the DC header and go with something custom Burns or another.

8. The water injection is not going to be of any use at your desired C/R

9. Wiseco pistons and Carrillo rods make a really nice combination Very light weight.

10. "Amateurs don't use nitrous oxide. I've seen the way you drive; you've got a heavy foot. You'll blow yourself to pieces!"

11. Most important part if you want to mod your B16 go ahead and do it, It seems as you are doing well with it in your area already.

But more than anything H-T has plenty of resources of other similar builds. I also suggest checking out this page http://www.g-speed.com/eg2/ as it is exactly what you are looking for.

 

So the proper combination of different OE parts and aftermarket parts will yield the most gains out of my application? Sounds good to me. I always thought people reused ITR, CTR, and GSR parts out of frugalness, I never thought that thier specs were more efficient across the board than a full- out aftermarket setup. I have been reading and hearing more about the m22x cams. They look like they make strong power across the band and a lot of you guys (smarter) guys have been giving it the stamp of approval. I have a friend I AutoX with who built a GSR using a CTR IC and an ITR EC. He told me he was making massive all-motor power in this FF rally car. The combination, in theory, sounds really good. Which would a the BEST cam setup, CTR/ITR, or x. I don't want to go xx unless I get ahold of the B20, that would just be silly.
NatAsp, thanx for the link, real help!

 

anyone know where to source a B20 block in Alaska? Anyone want to buy a JDM B16A block, complete with rotationg assembly and 10.4:1 pistons? Motor is strong, its just too small.

 

you sure the IM isint too big?

 

probably is, even for a B20/VTEC. I have heard from lots of people that it is garbage below 7,000 rpm. Its a really good drag IM with 4.7s or 4.9s when your revving out to 9,500-10,000rpm, but I am quickly learning that this is counter-productive to my application. Anyone know of any really good lower-midrange IMs that can still handle power to about 8,200 in an 84x89 block. Still convinced it is ITR, but wanted 2nd opinions. Thanx in advance.


Stock never enough
Built way to go, make your car your signature

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xDEFTONESx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

if there is one thing worse than a b16 for autox, its a turbo b16.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I never suggested turbo.
Now that I see a 2.0liter block in the works, my idea of a small pulley jackson kit gets shelved.

B16's and torque shouldn't be used in the same sentance.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by outtacontrolsol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Now for a whole new can of worms. xDeftonesx, I read a lot of your threads, when your not burning people to small flakes of ash, your giving really sound advice, you and Clean Rice, who I'd really like to get input from. You said that a NON-Vtec setup would be best. I have found that Vtec, when tuned PROPER, is a smooth power transition that is neither heard or felt. A guy in my car club in VA has a dad with a 92 NSX. I got to drive it once, and the VTEC was absolutely seemless. My question is, should I tune my VTEC for a smooth, fluent operation, or go straight for the throat and dump a load into the TODA fund and get a VTEC killer setup. Not a very big fan of killing wonderful technology like VTEC, but this is a means to an end. Any feedback is well welcomed.
Thank you for the info so far, you guys are really helping me out. </TD></TR></TABLE>

hmmm, there is a user here named driven. well, thats his username. he built an all aout GSR for track use.

what he did was tune the **** out of it, then, when he was "finished" he messed around with the timing and brought the power much earlier into the powerband. he lost 4 peak hp, but gained something like 10whp around the vtec point. this was optimum for him and although the peak number was less, THE CAR ITSELF was faster around the track.

i would adhere to his thinking and maybe pm him. yes, vtec is supposed to be somewhat seemless but that all depends on the cam. some of the earlier cams on the market like the jun ones had oem sized primaries, with 12mm vtec lobes, so no matter what you did you had either a little hitch in the band, or an extremely late vtec. but with someof the newer stuff, they take that into consideration, such as the s2 pro series or some of the newer buddy club cams.

dont be worried about weight. i cant be exact but, im thinking the weight difference between a b16 and a b20 is less than 40 pounds. if that kills ya, buy a miata battery and put it in the trunk. problem solved.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xDEFTONESx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

dont be worried about weight. i cant be exact but, im thinking the weight difference between a b16 and a b20 is less than 40 pounds. if that kills ya, buy a miata battery and put it in the trunk. problem solved.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Point taken, book closed on weight problems. I have a full interior car, so moving weight around should be a minor issue, especially at 40lbs. If I had it cornerweighted when she was gutted...different story. Thought weight wuld be 75+ lbs, that was where my concerns began. I'm gonna PM that guy a little later on this week, I gotta get to work. That is the kind of tune I am looking for though. 'Preciate the info.

 

Still looking for a B20 block and crank. Hard set on a block guard, rods and HC pistons. 11.5:1. I hate the guess-my-horsepower game as much as the next guy, but I want assurance that 200-215 whp is achievable in a full streetable trim. I mean pump gas with a side of Torco every tank to deliver the pizza in. Sound sound to y'all? I can't see why not. I actually think I will be a little bit overbuilt, with enough room for improvement. Always in need of a more experienced opinion, so feedback please. Until I learn enough to not bug you guys on the forum. Thanx fellas, I will get pics when everything REALLY starts to take off, not just a Y21 tranny rebuild.