Drew555

Right - hellllllllllllllp please?

Putting a B16A from a Del-Sol SiR into an MA9 5-door civic.

The swap is 'done' - but all is not well.

It's running like a bag of crap and it looks to have pushed the o/s driveshaft out of the diff, losing drive (it's currently abandoned in a car park - we started at 7:30 am and when we left the workshop it was 10:30 pm, dark, on a country lane and we'd had a gutful of it), so we'll get it towed back and have a look at it later today or tomorrow.

So I'm a bit desperate for some help...

Some background on the swap.

We've used the shafts, hubs and brakes off the Del-Sol - everything seemed to bolt up without to many problems - well, nothing that caused any concern anyway. It's been said that it might not have been seated properly - but it DID drive OK for about half a mile, and we have no idea how it even managed to move over far enough to pop out of the diff. Any ideas about something obvious we might have missed?

The steering had just come from right-hand-down lock when it lost drive - related perhaps?

Surely the hub being held in position by the balljoints shouldn't allow the shaft to move far enough towards the outside of the car to allow it to come un-splined?

Hoping it will be an easy, simple fix - help?

Turned out we hadn't rammed the shaft in hard enough - it hadn't locked in place. Duh.

On to the running problem. Remarkably, it fired up on the first turn of the key - although we did do a couple of pretty desperate things (it was late at night and we were knackered, so don't think too badly of us).

The symptoms are: it idles lovely, no hunting or messing around. At low revs with very light throttle openings it is absolutely fine. At any kind of larger throttle opening it just bogs down - keeps running, just lacks ANY kind of power. The orange 'check engine' light is on.

It all bolted up and seemed fine, the engine bay plugs seemed to all be fine (there is an unused multi-plug on the car side of the loom on the n/s that we assumed just wasn't needed). The fuel filter arrangement (bolted to the bulkhead) on the B16 is slightly different - the fuel filter has a 3 pin multi-plug that had no corresponding wire on the car - so we used the fuel filter from the Civic instead (without the 3 pin connector).

Turns out the fuel filter arrangement plug was for the MAP sensor we had forgotten to fit. Duh again.

Here's where we got desperate. When we went to plug in the ECU, although we had compared the two and they seemed the same (apart from one of the plugs being blue instead of grey), the end, larger plug of the three just wouldn't fit. It all looked the same (although the wire colours coming out of each of the large plugs was entirely different) it just seemed to be quarter of a mm too big. So we bit the bullet, risked a fire and removed a couple of plastic prongs from the car plug and made it fit. Shockingly, it ran immediately

We didn't have time to swap over the fuel pump from the B16 donor - could this be the cause of the issue? Or is it more likely to be something to do with the fuel filter 3-pin connector? Or have we borked an ECU?

Turns out the fuel filter arrangement plug was for the MAP sensor we had forgotten to fit. Duh again.

Any ideas you could shove in our direction would be gratefully recieved, we're about ready to burn the damn thing.

Thanks.

:edit: The B16A is from a JDM Del-Sol and the MA9 is UK-spec.

grumblemarc

iTrader: (4)

We never got the MA9 here in the states. Why didn't you not use the whole drivetrain from the Del Sol?

Drew555

We used the engine, transmission, driveshafts and hubs - what else is there?

The only other thing we 'could' have taken was the lower control arms maybe?

grumblemarc

iTrader: (4)

Okay. I guess I'm getting confused. Just not sure why anything would pop out f the differential or if the axles are even correct to use for that swap. As I said, this car never came to the US so knowledge of it may be slim to none.

What ECU are you using? You didn't say?

Drew555

In my research I've found someone who had a 'right side' driveshaft repeatedly popping out after very short distances (less than 10 yards), and he reported that after giving it a good smack when fitting it, it never came out again. This seems... weird.

But correct. Duh.

We're using the ECU from the Del Sol, and all the standard, already installed wiring. The plugs on the car matched up with the plugs on the engine really well, with just one plug on the car without a corresponding plug on the engine on the n/s (left when sitting in the car).

Other than that the only real difference as the fuel filter was totally different, and the car had no corresponding plug, so we used the Civic fuel filter.

Again - nothing to do with the fuel filter - it was the MAP sensor. Duh.

I'm thinking that maybe we've done something really, really stupid with the electricals or the vacuum system.

Thanks for your help, it's very much appreciated

Drew555

It looks like this (but right hand drive), if that's any help.

Drew555

Fixed it :-)

For them that are interested, here's a brief rundown of what we ended up doing.

The bits from the Del Sol we used:

Engine/gearbox/engine loom/driveshafts/hubs/brakes/MAP sensor/ECU/rear engine mount/underbonnet fusebox.

Mechanically, it all bolted together pretty simply - engine is mounted using a mix and match of the Sol and Civic mounts. Nothing overly taxing there, if you're relatively handy with a spanner. MAKE SURE YOU LOCATE THE DRIVESHAFTS CORRECTLY - THEY HAVE A LOCK RING ON THEM AND IT NEEDS TO LOCATE PROPERLY WITH A 'SNAP' OR IT WILL FALL OUT.

Electrically it was a little more taxing, but with a little bit of studious Googling we sussed out what we needed to do - and here's the short version. Plug and play? Very, very nearly.

The D15 has a inlet mounted MAP sensor - the B16 has a bulkhead mounted one - therefore the wires are all wrong. We used the sensor from the B16 in the end and the wiring from the D15 loom. We removed the entire correct connector and wires (with both ends - MAP sensor plug and Canon plug end) from the D15 loom and plugged the MAP sensor in one end and the slid the pins into the empty holes in the canon plug. We have cable tied it out of the way for now. DO NOT FORGET TO DO THIS. We forgot, and it was crap.

It still wasn't running right and the Engine Management light was on, so we checked to see what error codes the ECU was throwing up. We got:

20 - Electrical Load Detector. To fix this, we need the fuse box from the Sol, and haven't had time to go get it yet.
22 - VTEC pressure valve. We know this as the VTEC solenoid. We followed a guide and ran a new wire from the solenoid to the ECU and POW! - the fault was gone.
7 - Throttle Position Sensor. We fixed this by plugging it in....

And now it roars like a mentalist.

All the wiring is kinda original. We only had to add a wire from the VTEC solenoid to the ECU and add the wiring for the MAP sensor. One Civic ECU plug needed a little 'fettling' to fit right in the Sol ECU (we clipped off a couple of the locating lugs so it would fit) but other than that we had to run a total of four wires (three for the MAP sensor and one for the VTEC solenoid).

The Engine Management light is still on - and I'll go and see what codes it's throwing when I've had a cup of tea. I assume (and hope) it's the Electrical Load Detector that will be fixed when we swap in the Sol fusebox.

Now I have an MA9 that revs off the clock and sounds like a big motorbike.

Happiness sounds like an F1 reject :-)

Former User

Thanks for posting your progress. It's much appreciated.

Drew555

No problem - here is about the only place that offered any kind of real aid :-)

Checked up for ECU error codes, and yep - it's still throwing me the Error 20 - ELD. Not worried about that.

But it's also now throwing me an Error 23 - Knock Sensor and Error 1 - O2 sensor.

I assume the D15 didn't have a knock sensor, so we need to figure out where the wires need to be and add them.

Then onto the 02 sensor...

I'll keep this thread up to date, there will be a gap because we're on holiday for a week next week, but I'll be on it again next weekend, ready to go boy-racer baiting.

:edit: Where is the 02 sensor mounted that Error code 1 refers to? Is this the one that is after the catalytic converter on the Del Sol? It had a braided wire on it that went up into what would be the transmission tunnel on a RWD car, and we didn't put it on the Civic because we didn't figure out where it went to...

Drew555

We're at the troubleshooting phase now (apart from the exhaust - which is a whole 'nother ball game :p ).

Now I'm asking for a little help - pointing the right way.

Was called into work last night (delivering yummy Indian foods), and it was a-ok when I left, if a little noisy. However after a while, it started trying to idle at anywhere between 2000 - 3500 rpm. Needless to say, this is unacceptable - for one the fuel economy is hideous.

We checked for ECU error codes and it threw up ONLY error 20 - the electrical load detector. Before it was throwing the knock sensor and 02 sensor as well, seems weird.

I'm sure it's electrical - it seems intermittent. Sometimes it idles lovely, other times it's a total pig. I'm hoping it is the ELD, because we have one of them, and just need to retrieve and fit it.

Any other ideas?

The management light only lights from time to time, and there seems to be no rhyme nor reason to it. Had a 5 mile-ish trip this morning and it was faultless. VTEC engages, idling lovely.... I hate electrical gremlins

The symptoms are: intermittently ridiculous idle speed, smells 'fuely' and fuel consumption is crazy. Occasional management light on-ness.

Drew555

Hi lads. Little help plz?

It's using a shedload of fuel and the idle issue is still there, and it's throwing knock sensor and 02 sensor error codes (I don't think either one is talking to the ECU).

Other than that, it's awesome.

Today's questions are...

Knock sensor. It appears to be wired straight into the engine loom, so I assume it goes straight to one of the canon plugs on the shock tower. It's in the car and a right PITA to see, so what colour/location are the knock sensor wires? I assume I have to run new wires from the canon plug to the ECU - which ones go where?

Much the same for the 02 sensor - I'm told that the plug on the exhaust manifold is 02 sensor '1' (pre-cat) and the one we've just rescued from the donor Del Sol is 02 sensor '2' (post-cat, and not present on the MA9). The one on the manifold appears to be wired in (it has 4 wires coming from it) but we can't figure out where to put the wires from the second one (on the Sol it went up through the car floor in line with the A-pillars, and has a braided metal shielded cable coming from it containg two wires terminating in a 2 pin plug).

Please help, I'm going stir crazy

94EG8

JDM Del Sol? That second sensor is a CAT temp sensor if it's got a metal braided cable coming out. Knock sensor wire should be blue/red.

Drew555

Ooo.. thanks. Does this need to be wired in, or can I ignore it? Could this be the reason it's idling weird?

Is it just the one wire?

And do you know which pin it goes to on the ECU?

Thanks a lot for your reply :-)

Drew555

After a bit of googling, it appears you're bang on the money.

Looks JUST like this...



So if that's NOT the 02 sensor problem that the error code is talking about - I might be in trouble...

94EG8

You don't need it. Shouldn't throw a code.

Yes.

D3




Np

Drew555

You sir, are a superstar.

Looks like that's the job for tomorrow then :D

I'll post back with progress.

Many thanks mucka

Drew555

Gaaaaah.

Is pin D3 used for anything else?

I went to hook up the blue/red wire to ECU pin D3, and it's already occupied by a yellow wire....

Now I'm officially lost

Drew555

Throttle cable adjusted - idle issue resolved. Duh, #winning. Lambda and knock sensor to go....

94EG8

Nope, you sure you're looking at the right pin location?

Drew555

I'll double-triple super check it.