Whats the point of adjustable sway bar mounts?
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Whats the point of adjustable sway bar mounts?
So okay... My rear sway bar is bent in on one side, I figure I need to replace it... I've been salivateing over the prospect of a progress group bar for a few weeks now... This of course leads to the need to make some proper adjustable end links to replace the crap the progress supplys with the bar... I really like the idea of upgrades... And makeing my own parts so I'm excited and counting down the weeks until I can afford it... But I got in a conversation with a friend tonight and he thinks the whole plan is totaly foolish.
After taking about it a bit I'm haveing trouble faulting his logic on this one so I need a bit of help... I'm sure the issue here is my basic lack of understanding as to how the bar works. Or maybe his...
Oh yeh... The point:
So my buddy says there is no point to adjustable links as in longer or shorter or for that matter closer or further from the ends of the bar beyond clearence. He's saying the whole bar is simply going to rotate and I will not be preloading it at all... Makes sense as far as I can see... So I thought I would throw it out to the HT comunity since I'm obvously way to dumb to refute his argument.
Can anyone offer a bit more info? From what I remember looking at my bar, and all the pictures I can find* the part of the bar between the mounts is straight across, nothing to stop it from just roateing in the bushings.... What am I missing here?
*image is just a sample, actual product my differ (does this **** anyone else off???)
Modified by datac99 at 6:38 AM 10/24/2006
After taking about it a bit I'm haveing trouble faulting his logic on this one so I need a bit of help... I'm sure the issue here is my basic lack of understanding as to how the bar works. Or maybe his...
Oh yeh... The point:
So my buddy says there is no point to adjustable links as in longer or shorter or for that matter closer or further from the ends of the bar beyond clearence. He's saying the whole bar is simply going to rotate and I will not be preloading it at all... Makes sense as far as I can see... So I thought I would throw it out to the HT comunity since I'm obvously way to dumb to refute his argument.
Can anyone offer a bit more info? From what I remember looking at my bar, and all the pictures I can find* the part of the bar between the mounts is straight across, nothing to stop it from just roateing in the bushings.... What am I missing here?
*image is just a sample, actual product my differ (does this **** anyone else off???)
Modified by datac99 at 6:38 AM 10/24/2006
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Re: Whats the point of adjustable sway bar mounts? (datac99)
The only point of adjustability in the endlinks is clearance :EDIT: and adjusting the balance/preload of the swaybar between both sides. Thanks 117
The Progress bar itself is adjustable by way of 3 different mounting points on each side. I haven't tried any adjustments on mine yet though...
Modified by Hawkze_2.3 at 10:22 PM 10/29/2006
The Progress bar itself is adjustable by way of 3 different mounting points on each side. I haven't tried any adjustments on mine yet though...
Modified by Hawkze_2.3 at 10:22 PM 10/29/2006
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Re: Whats the point of adjustable sway bar mounts? (Hawkze_2.3)
Thanks Hawkze, I kept on looking at your post trying to figure it out... I don't know where I came up with the idea of preloading the bar... Couldn't find a single post about it this evening... I was sure I had read something to that effect somewhere... Maybe a diffrent car with a design that braces the bar on... No... No... I think I just pulled it out of my butt...
Thanks for the writeup and pics BTW... Got to have clearence... I was just hopeing for some tuneability I guess. Damnit I hate being wrong...
*EDIT*
Hell I'll call progress tomarow and see if they can explain it to me... Only thing me and my buddy could come up with regarding the diffrent mounting holes was biasing the handeling for a track with more right/left turns or circle tracks.
Modified by datac99 at 7:02 AM 10/24/2006
Thanks for the writeup and pics BTW... Got to have clearence... I was just hopeing for some tuneability I guess. Damnit I hate being wrong...
*EDIT*
Hell I'll call progress tomarow and see if they can explain it to me... Only thing me and my buddy could come up with regarding the diffrent mounting holes was biasing the handeling for a track with more right/left turns or circle tracks.
Modified by datac99 at 7:02 AM 10/24/2006
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Re: Whats the point of adjustable sway bar mounts? (datac99)
No problem 
Now you could preload one side by having one endlink longer than the other...don't know how you would know what you were doing but it's possible.
The different holes are for stiffness adjustment (as far as I can figure).
Now you could preload one side by having one endlink longer than the other...don't know how you would know what you were doing but it's possible.
The different holes are for stiffness adjustment (as far as I can figure).
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Re: Whats the point of adjustable sway bar mounts? (Hawkze_2.3)
Right. But what stops the bar from rotateing in it's mounts when you move the tie rods inward? Is it clamped down so hard that half a ton bounceing on it will not make it move?
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Re: Whats the point of adjustable sway bar mounts? (datac99)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by datac99 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Right. But what stops the bar from rotateing in it's mounts when you move the tie rods inward? Is it clamped down so hard that half a ton bounceing on it will not make it move? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Nothing stops it from rotating...it's supposed to rotate in the mounts. I'm not exactly sure what you're asking....
Nothing stops it from rotating...it's supposed to rotate in the mounts. I'm not exactly sure what you're asking....
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Re: Whats the point of adjustable sway bar mounts? (Hawkze_2.3)
Not correct. The point of having adjustable end links is so you can adjust the lengths so that there is no preload on the sway bar when the car is static. This is usually done when the car is corner weighted. If the sway bar has fixed end links and the sway bar is preloaded when the car is static, the corner weight can shift. Corner weighting is normally done with the sway bar end links disconnected.
If the sway bar is preloaded, the car will sometimes turn one direction "better" than the other.
Clearance adjustment is a nice side benefit of adjustable end links, though.
The point of the different mounting holes for the end links is to adjust the stiffness of the bar. If the lever arm is shorter, it effectively makes the bar stiffer. This adjusts the handling bias of the car.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hawkze_2.3 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The only point of adjustability in the endlinks is clearance.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
If the sway bar is preloaded, the car will sometimes turn one direction "better" than the other.
Clearance adjustment is a nice side benefit of adjustable end links, though.
The point of the different mounting holes for the end links is to adjust the stiffness of the bar. If the lever arm is shorter, it effectively makes the bar stiffer. This adjusts the handling bias of the car.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hawkze_2.3 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The only point of adjustability in the endlinks is clearance.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
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Re: Whats the point of adjustable sway bar mounts? (117)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 117 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not correct. The point of having adjustable end links is so you can adjust the lengths so that there is no preload on the sway bar when the car is static. This is usually done when the car is corner weighted. If the sway bar has fixed end links and the sway bar is preloaded when the car is static, the corner weight can shift. Corner weighting is normally done with the sway bar end links disconnected.
If the sway bar is preloaded, the car will sometimes turn one direction "better" than the other.
Clearance adjustment is a nice side benefit of adjustable end links, though.
The point of the different mounting holes for the end links is to adjust the stiffness of the bar. If the lever arm is shorter, it effectively makes the bar stiffer. This adjusts the handling bias of the car.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
amen to that
If the sway bar is preloaded, the car will sometimes turn one direction "better" than the other.
Clearance adjustment is a nice side benefit of adjustable end links, though.
The point of the different mounting holes for the end links is to adjust the stiffness of the bar. If the lever arm is shorter, it effectively makes the bar stiffer. This adjusts the handling bias of the car.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
amen to that
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From: Further down the spiral, TX, usa
Re: Whats the point of adjustable sway bar mounts? (117)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 117 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not correct. The point of having adjustable end links is so you can adjust the lengths so that there is no preload on the sway bar when the car is static. This is usually done when the car is corner weighted. If the sway bar has fixed end links and the sway bar is preloaded when the car is static, the corner weight can shift. Corner weighting is normally done with the sway bar end links disconnected.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
OK..... my rear endlinks rotate freely on both ends(heim joints) so I don't see how you could preload that. It would just settle in how it wants whenever you set the car down.
Are you talking about only fixed endlinks?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
OK..... my rear endlinks rotate freely on both ends(heim joints) so I don't see how you could preload that. It would just settle in how it wants whenever you set the car down.
Are you talking about only fixed endlinks?
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Re: Whats the point of adjustable sway bar mounts? (Hawkze_2.3)
What is a fixed end link? An end link has to move freely at each end. If not, it'll bind up and either bend or break.
Preload in a sway bar is almost like preload in a spring. With the car in its static state, i.e. sitting on level ground, there should be no twist (i.e. preload) in the sway bar. In other words, you should be able to remove the bolts for the end links without using any force.
Maybe an extreme example might help. Think of your sway bar now, and what if one end link was 2 inches longer than the other? What do you think would happen when you put the car on the ground? Can you see that the sway bar will have a considerable amount of force put on it when you put all 4 wheels on the ground? That's preload.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hawkze_2.3 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">OK..... my rear endlinks rotate freely on both ends(heim joints) so I don't see how you could preload that. It would just settle in how it wants whenever you set the car down.
Are you talking about only fixed endlinks?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Preload in a sway bar is almost like preload in a spring. With the car in its static state, i.e. sitting on level ground, there should be no twist (i.e. preload) in the sway bar. In other words, you should be able to remove the bolts for the end links without using any force.
Maybe an extreme example might help. Think of your sway bar now, and what if one end link was 2 inches longer than the other? What do you think would happen when you put the car on the ground? Can you see that the sway bar will have a considerable amount of force put on it when you put all 4 wheels on the ground? That's preload.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hawkze_2.3 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">OK..... my rear endlinks rotate freely on both ends(heim joints) so I don't see how you could preload that. It would just settle in how it wants whenever you set the car down.
Are you talking about only fixed endlinks?</TD></TR></TABLE>
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Re: Whats the point of adjustable sway bar mounts? (datac99)
I'm building some end links for some people on another board with Progress bars. If you're interested, let me know. 
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by datac99 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So my buddy says there is no point to adjustable links as in longer or shorter or for that matter closer or further from the ends of the bar beyond clearence. He's saying the whole bar is simply going to rotate and I will not be preloading it at all...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Your friend needs to think about it some more. The bar can't just rotate freely. One end of the bar is attached to side of the rear suspension (via the end link), and the other side of the bar it attached to the other side of the rear suspension. It's can't just rotate and have no preload unless the sway bar is 100% ineffective. That's the entire premise of the sway bar (more correctly called an anti-roll bar).
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by datac99 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So my buddy says there is no point to adjustable links as in longer or shorter or for that matter closer or further from the ends of the bar beyond clearence. He's saying the whole bar is simply going to rotate and I will not be preloading it at all...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Your friend needs to think about it some more. The bar can't just rotate freely. One end of the bar is attached to side of the rear suspension (via the end link), and the other side of the bar it attached to the other side of the rear suspension. It's can't just rotate and have no preload unless the sway bar is 100% ineffective. That's the entire premise of the sway bar (more correctly called an anti-roll bar).
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Re: Whats the point of adjustable sway bar mounts? (117)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 117 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What is a fixed end link? An end link has to move freely at each end. If not, it'll bind up and either bend or break.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I was using the term that YOU used earlier:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 117 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If the sway bar has fixed end links and the sway bar is preloaded when the car is static, the corner weight can shift
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't know the technical term but I assumed a fixed endlink would be something like the front endlinks that bolt to the LCA with no rotation, only bushings. Maybe you meant non-adjustable, but why say "what is a fixed endlink", when it's a term you just used yourself? I guess I assumed wrong there...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 117 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Maybe an extreme example might help. Think of your sway bar now, and what if one end link was 2 inches longer than the other? What do you think would happen when you put the car on the ground? Can you see that the sway bar will have a considerable amount of force put on it when you put all 4 wheels on the ground? That's preload.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's what I said earlier that you said was wrong :rolls eyes:. If one was longer then it would be preloaded......
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I was using the term that YOU used earlier:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 117 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If the sway bar has fixed end links and the sway bar is preloaded when the car is static, the corner weight can shift
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't know the technical term but I assumed a fixed endlink would be something like the front endlinks that bolt to the LCA with no rotation, only bushings. Maybe you meant non-adjustable, but why say "what is a fixed endlink", when it's a term you just used yourself? I guess I assumed wrong there...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 117 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Maybe an extreme example might help. Think of your sway bar now, and what if one end link was 2 inches longer than the other? What do you think would happen when you put the car on the ground? Can you see that the sway bar will have a considerable amount of force put on it when you put all 4 wheels on the ground? That's preload.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's what I said earlier that you said was wrong :rolls eyes:. If one was longer then it would be preloaded......
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Re: Whats the point of adjustable sway bar mounts? (Hawkze_2.3)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hawkze_2.3 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was using the term that YOU used earlier:
I don't know the technical term but I assumed a fixed endlink would be something like the front endlinks that bolt to the LCA with no rotation, only bushings. Maybe you meant non-adjustable, but why say "what is a fixed endlink", when it's a term you just used yourself? I guess I assumed wrong there...</TD></TR></TABLE>
My impression is that you thought a fixed end link was one that had no bushings, no rod ends, etc. i.e. it's bolted rigidly to the sway bar and suspension piece. That's why I asked, it didn't make sense to me. When I said fixed end link, I meant one of fixed length. In hindsight, that was a big ambiguous.
What I meant to say, and what I should have said, is an end link of fixed length. That was my error.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hawkze_2.3 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That's what I said earlier that you said was wrong :rolls eyes:. If one was longer then it would be preloaded......</TD></TR></TABLE>
All I quoted was this:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hawkze_2.3 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The only point of adjustability in the endlinks is clearance. </TD></TR></TABLE>
All I told you was that statement is wrong, and it is. The point of adjustable end links is to remove the preload from the sway bar when the car is static so that it'll (in theory, and if everything else is set up correctly) turn equally well in both directions. Where in this thread did I tell you anything you said, other than that statement above, is wrong??
Don't turn this into some big drama, it reminds me why I don't post much here to begin with...
Modified by 117 at 6:59 PM 10/28/2006
I don't know the technical term but I assumed a fixed endlink would be something like the front endlinks that bolt to the LCA with no rotation, only bushings. Maybe you meant non-adjustable, but why say "what is a fixed endlink", when it's a term you just used yourself? I guess I assumed wrong there...</TD></TR></TABLE>
My impression is that you thought a fixed end link was one that had no bushings, no rod ends, etc. i.e. it's bolted rigidly to the sway bar and suspension piece. That's why I asked, it didn't make sense to me. When I said fixed end link, I meant one of fixed length. In hindsight, that was a big ambiguous.
What I meant to say, and what I should have said, is an end link of fixed length. That was my error.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hawkze_2.3 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That's what I said earlier that you said was wrong :rolls eyes:. If one was longer then it would be preloaded......</TD></TR></TABLE>
All I quoted was this:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hawkze_2.3 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The only point of adjustability in the endlinks is clearance. </TD></TR></TABLE>
All I told you was that statement is wrong, and it is. The point of adjustable end links is to remove the preload from the sway bar when the car is static so that it'll (in theory, and if everything else is set up correctly) turn equally well in both directions. Where in this thread did I tell you anything you said, other than that statement above, is wrong??
Don't turn this into some big drama, it reminds me why I don't post much here to begin with...
Modified by 117 at 6:59 PM 10/28/2006
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Re: Whats the point of adjustable sway bar mounts? (117)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 117 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Don't turn this into some big drama, it reminds me why I don't post much here to begin with...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Sorry, not trying to cause any drama either....just wanted to clarify stuff. I should have elaborated more myself.
I did learn something from this thread and thanks for your input.
Don't turn this into some big drama, it reminds me why I don't post much here to begin with...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Sorry, not trying to cause any drama either....just wanted to clarify stuff. I should have elaborated more myself.
I did learn something from this thread and thanks for your input.
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Re: Whats the point of adjustable sway bar mounts? (Hawkze_2.3)
No problem on the input, I try to help when I can.
One last comment, and it's not meant to bust your *****.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hawkze_2.3 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If one was longer then it would be preloaded......</TD></TR></TABLE>
This statement isn't always true. With most cars, the weight distribution is uneven, and even with equal length end links on the anti-roll bars, they'll still be preloaded some. This situation is usually worsened by corner weighting, as every corner will be at a different ride height. Hence the need for adjustable length end links.
One last comment, and it's not meant to bust your *****.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hawkze_2.3 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If one was longer then it would be preloaded......</TD></TR></TABLE>
This statement isn't always true. With most cars, the weight distribution is uneven, and even with equal length end links on the anti-roll bars, they'll still be preloaded some. This situation is usually worsened by corner weighting, as every corner will be at a different ride height. Hence the need for adjustable length end links.
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Re: Whats the point of adjustable sway bar mounts? (117)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 117 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
This statement isn't always true. With most cars, the weight distribution is uneven, and even with equal length end links on the anti-roll bars, they'll still be preloaded some. This situation is usually worsened by corner weighting, as every corner will be at a different ride height. Hence the need for adjustable length end links. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Good stuff I just bypassed the notion that each side would not be balanced with the other....I assumed it came like that stock, but of course that never is the way things work out 
Then when you start to modify stuff you have no clue where the weight distribution is....
This statement isn't always true. With most cars, the weight distribution is uneven, and even with equal length end links on the anti-roll bars, they'll still be preloaded some. This situation is usually worsened by corner weighting, as every corner will be at a different ride height. Hence the need for adjustable length end links.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Good stuff
I just bypassed the notion that each side would not be balanced with the other....I assumed it came like that stock, but of course that never is the way things work out Then when you start to modify stuff you have no clue where the weight distribution is....
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