Well, I've got a little over a month left here in the sandy hotness, and it's about that time to get my parts list up to date for the new car and motor build. Some of you might remember what happened, but for the rest of you here's the quick and dirty. Me + my Accord + way too much speed = bad things. Let this be a lesson to all. Anyway... I need a great deal of help in choosing the correct items and making sure I don't end up with any missing pieces to the puzzle.

The car is soon to be a 6th Gen Accord coupe with the 4cyl 5-speed manual. I'll be buying a spare long-block so I can work on it without any downtime, minus the actual swap.

Here's a tenative list of what's currently up to be purchased:

-AEM EMS with Wideband EUGO controller gauge
-Walbro Fuel Pump
-CP 86mm Pistons
-Crower Rods
-Maxbore TB Bore with IM port match
-DRAG Turbo kit without fuel management
-B&M Oil Cooler
-ARP H23 Headstuds
-Good tune

Other items I'd like to have but still need more research/opinions on are:

-Turbo Cam regrind
-Fuel line upgrades
-Head PnP
-IM to head and exhaust mani to head port matching and polish
-Fuel Rail
-FPR
-Turbocharger upgrades: Ball-bearing upgrade, Precision GT30R/GT35R upgrade, Precision SC upgrade, Tial wastegate
-Clutch and Flywheel setup (thinking 12lb for drivability purposes)


And... I'm sure there are a plethora of items I've forgotten or don't know about, so here's where I need your help. If there's something I MUST have for this build and you just want to help me out with a reminder, please do so. Also, any other items that you'd recommend to compliment the build, also please advise. I know there are a few of you out there with experience on this build, so I'd appreciate it if you chipped in your two cents as well. The goal is a reliable daily driver with 240-250whp, and a weekend track ***** with maybe 320-340whp if that's not beyond my limits. The current budget here is around $8200 after purchasing the car, so let's not get too carried away.

Thanks in advance.

-Jason


Modified by AFAccord at 10:56 AM 8/18/2006


Modified by AFAccord at 10:57 AM 8/18/2006

 

bump for some info. anything useful guys.

 

Sup Jay?

Here's my $0.02 for what it's worth.

Oil cooler is not necessary but would be a nice-to-have item.

Reground cam could be hit or miss.

PNP head will help. I'd recommend a valve job with stronger springs too so you can rev the motor higher than stock without worry if you decided to upgrade the head. Do the headwork while the motor's apart! (duH!) That said I'm running a 100% stock head and am shooting for higher power than your goals.

bored TB and IM will help but are not necessary for your power goals..

fuel line upgrades, don't bother, stock rail, FPR, and lines are fine for your power goals.

turbo upgrade would be nice but not really necessary for your daily driver goals.

I'd stick with a stock flywheel, don't go too light if you get an aftermarket. 12 lb wouldn't be bad.

Head studs - move these to your REQUIRED list. You do NOT want to build this motor and then have head lift problems!! ARP H23 head studs fit the F23 perfect.

Now my question to you: why are your daily goals so low? with the parts you have listed in your "required" list you can shoot for a lot higher power with plenty of reliability to boot.

-B

 

Hey man. I hoped I'd see your input here.

Ok... Oil cooler is something I salvaged from my last car. $100 bucks saved, and I'm looking at $10 to re-install it.

Cam, I know there's not much out there. Is it just questionable whether someone could regrind it to benefit the build or not?

PnP head is something I just didn't want to pass up while the motor's apart. Stronger springs... does raceeng.com carry those, and are they listed for F23? How about the valves themselves and retainers? It's actually difficult for me to imagine this 2.3L that's notorious for it's stroke/torque output to rev even higher, though I certainly wouldn't complain if it could.

bored TB and IM are just to compliment the headwork, and it fits nicely within the budget.

Fuel lines no? stock FPR is good as well?

As for the upgraded turbine, I was really considering just the ball-bearing upgrade. I'm still learning about the capabilities of different trim sizes.

If 12lb wouldn't be bad, would an 'upgraded' stock model be better? Something made of a bit stronger materials?

I forgot to put the headstuds on the list!! lol yikes... H23 and F23. Same quantity?

As for my goals, I knew my daily driver goals were a bit low, but I thought that might give me a little more reliability in the long run. With the parts listed so far, where should I be aiming for as a DD and track use??

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AFAccord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Oil cooler is something I salvaged from my last car. $100 bucks saved, and I'm looking at $10 to re-install it.

Cam, I know there's not much out there. Is it just questionable whether someone could regrind it to benefit the build or not?

PnP head is something I just didn't want to pass up while the motor's apart. Stronger springs... does raceeng.com carry those, and are they listed for F23? How about the valves themselves and retainers? It's actually difficult for me to imagine this 2.3L that's notorious for it's stroke/torque output to rev even higher, though I certainly wouldn't complain if it could.

Fuel lines no? stock FPR is good as well?

As for the upgraded turbine, I was really considering just the ball-bearing upgrade. I'm still learning about the capabilities of different trim sizes.

If 12lb wouldn't be bad, would an 'upgraded' stock model be better? Something made of a bit stronger materials?

I forgot to put the headstuds on the list!! lol yikes... H23 and F23. Same quantity?

As for my goals, I knew my daily driver goals were a bit low, but I thought that might give me a little more reliability in the long run. With the parts listed so far, where should I be aiming for as a DD and track use??</TD></TR></TABLE>
**** if you have the oil cooler by all means use it!

cam - I am suspect of regrinds in general. I'm very sketchy about someone welding material to a cam and then grinding it back down. That material breaks loose on only one lobe and you're in some trouble. that said I've heard good things about webcamshafts and they offer custom grinds for the F cam.

there are no valve springs/retainers listed for the F23 but stinker504 had his head built using F22 valves, springs, and retainers. seems they are a direct fit.

stock fuel lines, rail, and FPR will be good to over 400 HP. no need to change.

ball bearing turbo would be nice but they're $1000+. Balla upgrade LOL

you could have your stock flywheel lightened & resurfaced if you wanted to. I'd just resurface the stocker and be done but a new flywheel won't hurt. lighter flywheels rev up faster but they also rev DOWN faster.

H23 head stud kit is 100% direct fit, same qty.

re: revving higher: since I upgraded my turbo (to an SC6152E) the car just keeps pulling up to 7000 rpms and wants to go further. I had to increase my rev limiter to 7200 because I kept hitting it at 7k. The car just wants to keep spinning! Once I get on the dyno I'm going to spin it until it stops making power.

also I didn't see injectors on your list. what injectors are you planning on running?

with the parts listed so far, assuming the DRAG turbo, you could easily hit 300 WHP reliably.

I would just tune it to one level and leave it there, track or street. The only reason I'd have a different tune for the track would be if I were going to run race gas at the track.

-B

 

I sent my head to http://www.portflow.com . The Ferrea F22 valves were a direct swap to the F23 as for as the springs/retainers I'm not sure what parts they used for that. I only know that it's upgraded springs and Ti retainers. They also did a great job on the port/polish.

Earl/Benson recommended web cam for a regrind so that's where I sent mine to. I won't know if it's all worth it until this December.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stinker504 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I sent my head to http://www.portflow.com . The Ferrea F22 valves were a direct swap to the F23 as for as the springs/retainers I'm not sure what parts they used for that. I only know that it's upgraded springs and Ti retainers. They also did a great job on the port/polish.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

how much did that run you if you dont mind telling.

 

I know it's probably a given, but new OEM bearings? Also, (and at the risk of sounding like a ricer) you didn't have a BOV listed. Tial makes a nice piece, but I suppose it would really just be a personal choice. Something like an oil pressure gauge would be a "required" for me... I'm not sure if you had thought about something like that.

 

If it seems too questionable, I might hold my money and see if a better alternative comes up.

So F22 valves work? I'll try to get some more thoughts on the springs and retainers.


I think it's around $850 to upgrade, so I'm gonna keep it on the list for now.

So I'm still stuck between the a new 12lb, and a new OEM weight. My concern was the durability with higher/quicker revs. Will a new OEM one take the abuse?

Sweeet

So have you upgraded your valve train yet to do that lol? = confused

AH! Another thing that should be on the question list. Need references for brands and flow. What size should I be looking for?

I've done that before, just N/A lol. It was probably pointless at the time. I ran 93 religiously with the JET retune, so I'm used to the premium gas prices. If I can get some extra out of race gas (which is readily available at the pumps where I live) then I'd like to take advantage of that.

That idea was to run lower boost around town, and also have it tuned with a high boost setting to extract everything it's got. The daily driver goal was just a guess as to what would be safe. For the high-boost setting for the track, I'd like to get as much as this setup will allow. If that's 350whp, then I'm fine. If I can spend a little more to get 400-450whp, then that's just icing on the cake.

Yep, new bearings, rings and all go along with the rods and pistons. Good looking out though. The DRAG kit comes with a greddy type-s BOV, but I'm already considering the Tial upgrade like you mentioned. Speaking of rice...



I've still got alllll those parts in my garage, so yes, the gauge thing is taken care of.

Another question i had was about spark plugs. Should I run colder plugs?

Thanks for all the input so far! I'm going to revise and re-post the list as soon as i get the time.


Modified by AFAccord at 1:38 AM 8/19/2006

 

The following list are required parts. IE, parts that will be in place before the motor is assembled and ran:

-AEM EMS with Wideband EUGO controller gauge
-Walbro Fuel Pump
-CP 86mm Pistons
-Cylinders Bored and honed to 86mm
-Crower Rods
-New OEM main bearings, rod bearings, thrust washers, rings
-New timing belt
-Head Gasket (cometic or OEM?)
-Maxbore TB Bore with IM port match
-DRAG Turbo kit w/ ball-bearing upgrade. No FMU. Greddy type-s BOV
-B&M Oil Cooler
-ARP H23 Headstuds
-Clutch (Action brand. recommendations?)
-Flywheel setup (high-performance OEM option flywheel?)
-Head work: PnP, valve job, new seals, new valves, new springs and retainers
-IM to head and exhaust mani to head port matching and polish
-Autometer C2 gauges: Oil PSI, EGT, Boost/Vac, Voltage (uncle ben’s), AEM WB A/F,
-Good tune


Other items I'd like to have but still need more research/opinions on:

-Turbo Cam regrind
-Tial BOV


I was looking at PortFlow’s website, and like what I see. Stinker, did you get the Standard Honda service with the valve, springs and retainer service they have listed on their website? Did you opt for the valve guides also?

I’ve been looking into King Motorsports until now. Any experience with these guys?

notoriousB, I know I’ve hounded you before on this, but what clutch would you recommend for this setup? I’m still looking at Action’s clutches for my choices.

More to come cause I know I'm forgetting something.

 

I would go with RC 750cc injectors. That'll give you plenty of room to grow.

I've read a lot of good things about clutchmasters Stage 4 6 puck sprung clutch. It's aggressive but very streetable.

Portflow did the standard honda service with Ferrea valves, performance springs and retainers. I didn't go with the upgraded valve guides.

 

well for your money i wouldn't get the drag kit, i would get a log mani and then get intercooler pipes made but if thats out of the question so be it, also go to web cams for all of your head needs they have valves , springs ,retainers, everything for the f22 so most likely for f23.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by pumafeet10 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well for your money i wouldn't get the drag kit, i would get a log mani and then get intercooler pipes made but if thats out of the question so be it, also go to web cams for all of your head needs they have valves , springs ,retainers, everything for the f22 so most likely for f23. </TD></TR></TABLE>

If you suggest that I use a setup other than this kit, then I'd expect you to explain your reasoning, and maybe even address the other parts contained in this kit.

 

sorry wasn't trying to leave you hanging there on that , but for an accord there aren't many if any equal length manis out there and they are quite pricey and well most benefit from the higher reving lower displacement motors, unlike the log which will help spool and make more power than the cast mani in the drag kit. The intercooler piping is kind of convoluted and not very direct in my view. I would say put your bat in the trunk and get some piping made. Some people have made over 4oohp with the drag kit but that is pushing it. It seems to be limited, but if you make your kit you can really make it work for you your car and how you like to drive. Its a good kit "generally speaking" but if you would like to have it done right the first time thats what i would reccomend.yesa little more might be spent but you won't have to later on down the road. Oh about the bb chra most of the time it seems the bb helps with transient repsonse. meaning between shifts it keeps or make the boost quicker, you will stay in boost more. yes they are better for initial spool up but for some reason i can't see spending another say 500 on a turbo just for that. just my opinion. and the valve train i was speaking of was after talking to bisi the guy who has the 10 sec f22. he uses web cams with kibble white components. they are sold by web cams just ask for f22/23 vlavle train, you have lots of options with head porters such as rlz headgames and pro port on the east cost and port flow on the wets. now there are a ton more but those are just the major ones that stick out. i mean there is more stuff tot alk about but i am the kind of person who hates paying out the nose for stuff but when you want the best sadly we as accord owners have to pay for it

 

Questions about the kit are arising. Highly considering a piece by piece setup at this point. Here's some parts I'm considering. Critique is welcome.


- Tial Sport 38mm Wastegate

- BOV (Tial, TurboXS Type H, TurboXS Type S, TurboXS H-RFL, HKS SSQV, Greddy Type RS) Need input on these. What makes these different other than sound?

- RC Engineering Saturated Injectors. 550cc, 650cc, or 750cc size?

- SVE 3-bar MAP sensor kit

- Turbine. Here's what i'm looking at. Please help me out with this by addressing the specs below, as I'm still educating myself on understand them.

- Precision Turbo SC50 T3/T4 Hybrid
- Supports 450hp
- Oil Cooled with option for water cooling
- Option of T3/T4 Housing
- E-Style compressor cover. 3" in, 2" out.
- T350-76 Turbine style (630hp) with T04-69 (650hp) option or T04-76 P-Trim (680hp) option.
- TA31 style exhaust housing with 5-bolt discharge side
- T31 turbine wheel is standard
- A/R of .48 and .63


I want to use this thread also to keep a record of my progress with parts acquired/installed.

To start off...

29 August 06 - Action Clutch 2MS purchased
30 August 06 - Walbro 255lph HP Fuel Pump purchased
30 August 06 - ARP H23 Headstud kit purchased

 

BOV is a BOV - they sound different and some are easier to adjust than others. I'd avoid any BOV that requires washers or shims to adjust it. The Blitz BOV has a nice adjuster screw right on the top of it. Tial BOV is also good, it has different springs for different boost levels.

I'd just go with a GM 3-bar MAP for $30.

turbine - you definitely want the .63 on the exhaust size with a 2.3L motor. SC50 is rated for 450 crank horsepower and should be very responsive.

this info is not for the SC50: T350-76 Turbine style (630hp) with T04-69 (650hp) option or T04-76 P-Trim (680hp) option those specs are for the SC61.

you're running the EMS, which doesn't support the 650cc injectors. I'd recommend the 750s so you have room to grow, but 550 should be OK also.

-B

 

notoriousB is a far better person to respond to these questions then me, but I just felt I would chime in anyways. In short, I agree with notoriousB.

I haven't heard of anyone really using the SVE MAP kit. However, hordes of people use the GM 3-bar. It's cheap, proven, and reliable.

I didn't know that the AEM EMS doesn't support 650cc injectors. However, I was going to say to go with 750s for room to grow, like notoriousB mentioned. Anything larger and you might start teetering towards idle issues. Really big injectors can have a problem delivering such little amounts of fuel, although I don't think it's really a problem until you get to around 1000cc injectors...

I do have a question for notoriousB about the turbo... Now, it's been a couple years since I was "window shopping" for turbos, and I simply don't remember a good deal of info. In regards to the A/R size, the .48 would spool quicker than the .63, correct? Or do I have it backwards? I ask because I'm curious if you feel that with the .48 it might run out of steam on the top end?

 

Yes, the .48 will spool faster but will run out of steam before the .63 will. For example a T3/TO4e 57 trim .48 AR is rated to around 400hp. The same turbo but with a .63 AR is rated to 500hp.

I currently run the .48 but will swap to the .63 once my build is done.

 

tial bov is best option as the greatest area at 50mm but not really a big deal. bigger injectors would be good but it depends on your goals or future goals more precisely. sc-50 would be good but get the .63 ar for the difference in bottom end isn't much but up top i think it will benefit especially if u have head work and up the rev limiter since you will be able to make more power up top.

 

Thanks for the input from all of you. I certainly don't want to limit the capability of the setup with a turbo that's going to run out of breath, but I also don't want to go with anything too large that's going to let me down on the mid range performance. Is the difference between the .48 and .63 very substantial? Is there anything in between these trims, or should the .63 AR suit my needs, both mid-range and top end?

 

Here's a simplified description of the setup:

Bottom End:

- Rods (Crower)
- Pistons (CP)
- Main Bearings
- Rod Bearings
- Wrist Pins
- Rings


Head:

- PortFlow Head Service (PnP, 3-angle vavle job)
- Ferrea F22 Valve Springs
- Ferrea F22 Valve retainers
- Ferrea F22 Ti Valves
- TB Bore and port match to IM
- IM Polish


Fuel:

- Walbro 255lph FP
- Stock FPR
- Stock FR
- RC 750cc injectors


Engine Management:

- AEM EMS 30-1050U
- Autometer Guages


Drivetrain:

- Action 2MS clutch
- Resurfaced Stock Flywheel
- PSPEC Shift Kit


IF MONEY ALLOWS, some other options I'm considering are converting to external coil with MSD ignition, Fluidyne radiator, and quaife LSD.


I've also been considering some things such as porting and polishing the DRAG manifold toward the wastegate port in order to minimize any possible boost creep, water injection and/or a Nitrous or CO2 spray bar for the intercooler.

Any idea what RPM ranges these two trims are most efficient on this motor?

Lastly, breakin. I'll be breaking the clutch in on the stock motor, so that should be simple enough. As for the motor, here's what I've gathered from reading so far.

1. Install the motor with no FI.
2. Fill engine with Honda non-synthetic oil.
3. With no spark plugs, crank the motor for around 20 seconds, or until the oil pressure starts to register.
4. Install the spark plugs.
5. Start the motor.
6. Let someone keep an eye on the oil pressure while someone else checks for leaks. (fuel, oil, coolant)
7. If all is good, run the motor for 5-10 min, watching the oil and temp guages, keeping RPMs between 1000 and 3000.
8. Shut down the engine, and check again for any leaks.
9. Change the oil with more non-synthetic, drop the oil pan and clean any particles deposited there.

After that will be tuning. But I'm still unsure what to do at this point. I'm assuming that since my tuning knowleged is so limited, I'll have to trailer queen it to the nearest loaded dyno for some open loop tuning. Change the oil again, and keep running non-syntheic for the next 2000-2500 miles while the rings seat and seal, changing the oil every 1000 miles. After the tuning, I'll have the opportunity to fine tune it on the street and beat the heck out of it for around 500 miles, as in Motorman's 'break-in-secrets' page.

Any of this sound like I'm on the right track? My biggest question is about the ECU. Should I use the stock ECU to first run the motor, or the EMS? I don't know whether the stock ECU would be a good idea after head modifications and injectors. I figure the EMS won't be much better, though I could first tune it as close to the factory ECU settings as possible on the stock motor, then just make the adjustments to compensate for the mods while on the dyno just before tuning.

Please help me out if something's questionable. Thanks again for all the input!

-Jason

Modified by AFAccord at 6:05 AM 8/31/2006


Modified by AFAccord at 6:09 AM 8/31/2006


Modified by AFAccord at 6:11 AM 8/31/2006

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr Wonderfull &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">FYI:

H and F springs are the same.

B, H and f retainers are the same (not sure about d).

nice build </TD></TR></TABLE>

Are you 100% on that? Sounds like some great info. Thanks

 

This is a great thread, the kind of stuff I would like to see more often.

Im just chiming in to say that i think you would be better off piecing together your own kit. The reason i think this is that your setup is already pretty custom, and you will be sitting aside and not using many of the DRAG parts. Why not save money and piece it together yourself? Spoolin or LSD ( http://www.lsdmotorsports.com/ ) will make you a nice log mani, and downpipe for fairly cheap with a t3 flange. Then you can order a intercooler and charge piping get and some oil lines and you won't be missing much. You might have to find someone to help you with some welds on the charge piping, but you will have to do some welding with the drag kit install anyway. Just my opinion, the drag kit however is very proven. Can't wait to see where this goes.

 

I have to say the main reason I was opting for the DRAG kit was because I'm concerned about getting all the necessary parts, fittings, and components. I pretty well know the components of a turbo setup, but I'm just about lost when it comes to oil lines, vacuum lines, fuel requirements, and where to tap and splice them. I believe that will be my biggest foe at this point.

In other news, yesterday I received my travel pay from my med-vac to Germany a couple months ago. So the budget is definitely looking well at this point. **Big smile on my face**

B, I remember you had lots of issues when you ordered the pistons and rods. Do you think I'll have the same problem, or will RE will be able to ship them out quickly? Also, if you had your pick, what bearings would you use, and where would you get them?

Still waiting on a reply from PSPEC whether the 6th gen shift kit is still available. I've heard 4bidden is very good as well, but do they offer the nice boot, as well as the beautiful shift ****?

On the topic of intercooling, I've seen a few names thrown out there, but what do you guys prefer for quality/performance? Also, for the sizing, do I go only as large of core that will receive direct airflow with the design of my bumper cover, or is there a benefit to a larger core? And charge piping... what size would be most efficient for my setup and goals?

dmurphy2k3, I'm glad to hear your info about the mani. I'll certainly check those out. Do you know any info about pricing?

I want to send a thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread so far. I hope the info here will help others as well, even while it's in progress. I have to send a special recognition to notoriousB, for putting up with all of my 'What Would B Do?' questions. I'll have to Paypal this man a beer or two.

 

AFAccord, It's great to hear that you're back in the game with your Accord! I'm in the process of getting my brakes serviced then I'm getting some new wheels. After that I'm going to do a complete overview of the car to make sure I won't have any random problems or costly repairs, buy some new suspension products (I.E. front & rear strut bars, rear sway, new LCAs, etc), and then I'm on my way to getting my car turboed.

In terms of your engine build - Where do you plan on getting this all done? Are you going to do the head work and bottom end build yourself or are you getting a shop to do it for you? I'm not sure whether it would be smart to just get my car turboed on stock internals or to save up and do it right. I'm a poor college kid right now so funds are limited.

On second hand I could get a used t3/t4 bored out to a .61 trim, piping, wastegate, IM, intercooler, BOV, injectors, etc. tuned on an Hondata s200 for under $2000 through some friends down south, I'm just paranoid that running that at 8psi daily is going to be taxing on my engine and my relability/longivity of the car will be depreciated.

Anyways, I don't want to jack your thread..I just respect you, stinker, and notorious so much and I have been following you guys for a while. I hope everything works out with your build and the car this time around, additionally, I wouldn't mind some pointers from you guys either . God Bless