Im planning on getting the bc spec 3 cams and I was wondering if I could keep the valve train stock except for the valves so that I can raise the compression some. So the ? is would this work without any problems or should I just buy a whole new valve train. And by the way Im not planning on reving past 8500. thanks

 

i've just got spec 3+, but i'm waiting for the tuner to let me know when he'll be ready before i change the cams.
from what i know these cams will run on the standard valve train,however i'm going to change the valves for reliability and a buddy club head gasket for a bit of compression, i'm told 12.1 is best but i think the gasket on my jdm motor should bring me up to about 11.5.1
someone did a very good review of these cams https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1384329

 

I would recommend to Change the Springs Toda 3 cams Have More duration than Stock therefore you are Moving the Power Band Higher Up so If you are Not Planning to Rev Past 8500 then why bother with these Cams?


You will need to up your Compression and up your rev limit to really get the Full Benifit of these Cams....

Bigger is not always Better.

 

how high can you have it reved to till the power starts to drop with toda 3's or the bc 3's? also could you keep the bottom end stock?


Modified by H8ted Ek at 8:06 PM 8/15/2006

 

Depends on your setup.

I wouldn't use stock springs.

 

If you leave the Bottom end Stock and do nothing for your compression then Don't bother with the Cams... (3, c, or stage 3 cams) you're over camming your setup... Meaning that there is Not enough Compression to feed the Higher Lift and longer duration to see a rel Benifit.

It is Not just about How High you can rev..

Duration of the cams will Move the Hp and Tq..

Give all things the same as for a cam profile... (lift) cam a and Cam B... Identical Except Cam B has increased duration. The Difference between these will be that Cam B hp and Torque Peak will be shifter to a higher RPM...

rule of thumb is for every 10 degree increase in duration will shift the Peak Hp and tq 500 rpms..

Use your STOCK cams as a BASE line... then compare them to the TODA C cams and you can estimate how far you will SHIFT the Peak Hp and tq

Think of Lift and Duration in terms of a water faucet...
Lift is How hard you turn on the water or How WIDE you open the valve While Duration is How long you leave the valve open.

But remember in this water faucet you NEED PRESSURE... If you have No water Pressure then it does not matter How WIDE or Long you open the valve no pressure means no power...

A glass = the Cylinder... you have an 8 oz glass

How long will it take to fill the glass? What will dictate the answer to this question?

If I have a ton of Lift, and ton of duration and No pressure can I fill the Glass? NO
So
if you are Not planning to up the Compression then you need to find a cam that can MAXIMIZE the stock compression in Lift and duration...

Bottom line is if you don't have the WATER PRESSURE, It doesn't matter How Much and How Long you leave open the faucet.. that class will not fill properly.....

 

Wow Thanks for your expertise, very imformative

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tsukuba 699 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you leave the Bottom end Stock and do nothing for your compression then Don't bother with the Cams... (3, c, or stage 3 cams) you're over camming your setup... Meaning that there is Not enough Compression to feed the Higher Lift and longer duration to see a rel Benifit.

It is Not just about How High you can rev..

Duration of the cams will Move the Hp and Tq..

Give all things the same as for a cam profile... (lift) cam a and Cam B... Identical Except Cam B has increased duration. The Difference between these will be that Cam B hp and Torque Peak will be shifter to a higher RPM...

rule of thumb is for every 10 degree increase in duration will shift the Peak Hp and tq 500 rpms..

Use your STOCK cams as a BASE line... then compare them to the TODA C cams and you can estimate how far you will SHIFT the Peak Hp and tq

Think of Lift and Duration in terms of a water faucet...
Lift is How hard you turn on the water or How WIDE you open the valve While Duration is How long you leave the valve open.

But remember in this water faucet you NEED PRESSURE... If you have No water Pressure then it does not matter How WIDE or Long you open the valve no pressure means no power...

A glass = the Cylinder... you have an 8 oz glass

How long will it take to fill the glass? What will dictate the answer to this question?

If I have a ton of Lift, and ton of duration and No pressure can I fill the Glass? NO
So
if you are Not planning to up the Compression then you need to find a cam that can MAXIMIZE the stock compression in Lift and duration...

Bottom line is if you don't have the WATER PRESSURE, It doesn't matter How Much and How Long you leave open the faucet.. that class will not fill properly..... </TD></TR></TABLE>

wow

 

I am glad you liked that ;-) Another rule of thumb when choosing cams is that Stock Compression stage 1 Spec A, 11.5 Compression Stage 2 Spec B cams, Stage 3, C cams need atleast 12:1 compression...

that is just generally and very Loosley speaking when you are thinking about upgrades...

First you want to think about Over all goal of your Build... Naturally if you want 300 Whp on a you are not going to select a NA setup unless you have $$ Once you determine your GOALs then you think of HOW do I get there.

this way it will save you lots of $$ in the Long run... too many times I see people start to Build up their compression and decide to go turbo when they realize that they are not going to make it that way...

 

wow, made me figure how i really wanna do my build. i see ppl on this board with 12.5 cr with stage three cams and all that. as of now i dont think this could be realistic to me to do as my jdmR hatch is a daily driven.

expecially its already has a high compresion i do get detonation sometimes on very hot days. bad headgasket and i believe bad rings, still very driveable but i get blowbyes like crazy. ill ltake the journey and get cp pistons 11.5 cr with stock headgasket dont know if i really need new rods? but ive already toda header on but have jun2 intake cams with toda gears and hondata not tune just waiting to put in atleast after a headgasket for the time being.

how does it sound for a mild build bottom? considering i do need a new pistons just get new forged pistons? cp pistons 11.5? would you get new rods?

 

If you want 11.5:1 compression... you can always go with JDM ITR Pistons and a Mugen ot Spoon HG...

I have JDM ITR Pistons and a Spoon HG I am pushing about 11.6:1 compression

That should be good for your Stage 2 cams to feed from. Just watch your Timing and GET IT TUNED!!!... that is where you are going to Notice your Power is after you TUNE IT...

A well tuned STOCK ITR Engine can be up to 20-30 peak HP over Stock Factory Settings....

You ever wonder Why people with I/H/E and Stage 3 cams are still not putting out 200 WHP and someone with CTR Cams and Stock Bottom End is 200 WHP???

TUNNING TUNNING TUNNING

There is Plenty of Power to be made from Stock Honda Components if you only TUNE.

Best recommendation I can give you is if you need a new HG and Rings... then get them replaced ASAP... You may not need new RODS NOW, but if you let the problem go then you will need New rods and Maybe even a New Crank...

No need for Forged Pistons and Rods unless you are doing something Crazy Like Boost of really High Compression But I don't recommend that is you are Det @ 11.5 I think if you tune it that willbe very Streetable OR atleast Richen Up the Mix till you can get it tuned...

Pr3 Pistons will jump your Compression with no need for a Thin HG. JDM P73 Pistons and a Thin HG... Change the Pistons HONE the BLock .25 Over get some Over sized Pistons... Mill the Head a lil to get a FLAT Matting surface...
(this will effect your compression as well so Keep that in Mind) what are the Specs on your CAMS? Lift and Duration??? BTW GET A Comparable EXHAUST CAM...

You need a place for the Intake Charge to go Otherwise you will contaminate your Charge and Lose power... there is a good reason that these companies sell Both Inatke and Ex cams...

Good Luck

 

Well as i was going back to Mike K's old post in Camshaft shotout. Suggested using the Jun stage2's wiht stock exhaust cam If you have an R. From the Specs of it it seems realistically comparable wiht the Jun2 intake cam wiht the ITR exh cam.

not sure if this is the exact specs on the itr camshafts

intake: 240 duraion and 11.5 lift
exhaust: 235 duration and 10.5 lift

heres the specs on the Jun2 intake cam
12.0mm lift and 266 duration

Ok, well i do have a 99 JDMb18cR motor. has 99 imprint on motor. and the pistons is 81mm. takin the circumstances that i will be taking the block out i midus well should get the 81.25mm os type R pistons with honing which they will anyways just wrapin new rings.

Questions on this whats the differences in standard 81mm jdm/usdm type r pistons comparin 81.25 or .20 .40 .50? i understand more displacement more torque andmore compressions?? IF also which brand?size you would choose? whats your engine spec consist of? jdmitr pistons standard?os? milled? im scared of the mill part if i do i dont want to mill by a whole lot dont know how much compression will jump by millin. shoo, millin is drilling holes on the block?lol or smoothing the surface of the block.


while this motor will be at a shop couldnt i have the cam drop in their wiht the correct valve lash till i get tune?

Because the shop i will be takin it to Inlinepro here in Va. they will charge for puttin camshaft in i would agree. tryin to keep money tight as possible and aye yo Tsukuba 699 Thanks again for givin me some really good insights/fundamentals on my interior of the motor/ and everyeone elses too

 

That is a BIG difference 235 duration and 266 and 12mm and 10.5...


Let's Look at this from the Water faucet analogy again...

if you can fill it you need to be able to spill it.
with a certain water pressure if your faucet is open a certain amount for a certain duration that means a certain amount of water will fill your glass...

you need to dump the dirty water in the glass to make room for the clean fresh water to come in on the next cycle.

Naturally with more duration you can expect some overlap. this point is where the Intake and Exhaust valves are open at the same time. The object is to time it so that the Exhaust Charge exits the cylinder fast enough to create a vaccum and actually Help to Suck in the Fresh intake charge.... if this is not achieved then you will have contamination in your intake charge and may lead to a rough Idle at low rpm...

VTEC helps to do away with this on a stock Engine But if you notice the Exhaust cam MUST compliment the Intake Cam inorder to keep this balance.

 

Isn't the BC spec 3 cams their entry level cams? Its more in the lines of skunks 2 stage 1/spoons/toda As which is more or less a very streetable cams on the stock valvetrain. If i remember correctly, i think that cam was designed for mid range powa and peaks out at around 7600 - 8000 rpm. Depending on your setup, it should net around 185-190 whp with a good tune and bolt ons. At least that is what i have read on the N/A board.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by h8ted ek &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Questions on this whats the differences in standard 81mm jdm/usdm type r pistons comparin 81.25 or .20 .40 .50? i understand more displacement more torque andmore compressions?? IF also which brand?size you would choose? whats your engine spec consist of? jdmitr pistons standard?os? milled? im scared of the mill part if i do i dont want to mill by a whole lot dont know how much compression will jump by millin. shoo, millin is drilling holes on the block?lol or smoothing the surface of the block.


while this motor will be at a shop couldnt i have the cam drop in their wiht the correct valve lash till i get tune?

Because the shop i will be takin it to Inlinepro here in Va. they will charge for puttin camshaft in i would agree. tryin to keep money tight as possible and aye yo Tsukuba 699 Thanks again for givin me some really good insights/fundamentals on my interior of the motor/ and everyeone elses too </TD></TR></TABLE>

Am always glad to help and pass on some good information that I learned when I rebuilt my Engine.

If you are getting Block work done then Go with Over size Pistons to ensure the Cylinder is Nice and Round. You alrady said the added advantage is more displacement (not much to squawk about but any little more can't hurt)
Part of the Process is making sure the mating surface of the block and head are not warped so that is why you want to mill the head (shave off a few .001thsmm) Same with the Block... I believe this is refered to as Decking the block and Milling the head... Both are essentially the same thing.
So you want to oversize by.25 mm and Hone the cylinders out then deck the block and mill the head JUST enough to make sure it is flat and will give a good seal...
This will bump the compression slightly as well... So go with the JDM ITR Pistons that way with all that you are doing Milling, Decking, Oversizing you will not get crazy increase in Compression... For the Mild to Moderate Street cams you will not want more than 11.5-11.7:1 compression... If you are already having problems with detonation... (tuning) Try and shoot for no more than 11.5:1
That was my goal but I actually ended up with slightly more cause I forgot to account for the milling but it's no bigdeal


PS the Shop has to remove the stock cams anyway inorder to do the bottomend work so they shouldn't charge you any extra to install the aftermarket cams.

It is best to get as much as you can afford to get done while the engine is out of the car and in pieces...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Petah &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Isn't the BC spec 3 cams their entry level cams? Its more in the lines of skunks 2 stage 1/spoons/toda As which is more or less a very streetable cams on the stock valvetrain. If i remember correctly, i think that cam was designed for mid range powa and peaks out at around 7600 - 8000 rpm. Depending on your setup, it should net around 185-190 whp with a good tune and bolt ons. At least that is what i have read on the N/A board.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I am guessing you are refering to buddyclub???
BC Stage III 304/294 @1mm (in/ex) and Lift is 11.59mm/10.71mm
Skunk 2 Stage 1 is 252/249 @1mm (in/ex) and lift is 11.58mm/10.82mm
Spoon cams are 256/245 @1mm (in/ex) and lift is 11.53mm/11.13mm
STOCK ITR Cams 245/240 @ 1mm(in/ex) and lift is 11.45mm/10.52mm
Given a Stock Type R engine makes about 200 HP @ 8000 RPMs and given our rule of thumb...

The BC cams PB should shift up almost 3000 RPMs So I don't know why Power would stop at 8000.. Certainly other factors will effect this But generally speaking

What was the compression, How was the Tunning? these will all effect the outcome...