Over this weekend, I went lapping at the Mosport DDT(Driver development track) and faded some brakes after only about 7-8 laps. Has anyone had this problem b4 with the Panther+? These pads came highly reccomended by most users from this forum. The track is pretty brake intensive, but 7-8 laps doesn't seem like that much for a pad that's supposed to be almost on par with Hawk Blues.

I called Andie @ Carbotech and was suggested to replace them with a baseline pad that we know worked well just to make sure there was nothing wrong with the braking system. I'll get to do that next weekend, since the car isn't close by right now. The car in question is an Eagle Talon TSI with ATE Blue fluid and a little brake cooling. Pads were properly bedded in... Since the brake feel wasn't too soft and the pedal didn't go all the way to the metal, I'm pretty sure the fluid hadn't boiled yet. If anyone has had some experience with these pads, I'd really appreciate some input.

 

Never faded a Panther+, but there is no way they are designed to be on par with a Hawk Blue, which is a full-race, basically unstreetable pad.

Edit: How old is your fluid?


[Modified by 4doorH22, 7:29 PM 4/23/2002]

 

Around 4 months old... I'm not expecting the P+ to be on par with Blues, but I was kinda expecting a little more than 7-8 laps from them. Even Andie said that was out of the ordinary, so maybe I recieved the wrong pad... That's all I can think of.

 

Ditto!

 

How old is your fluid?
Was this possibly "green" fade? Did you bed the pads in correctly before the track event?

I've never, ever, ever faded Panther + pads when properly bedded in. Not even at VIR-south or CMP which are two of the hardest tracks on brakes in existence.

Edit: just read that you say you properly bedded them in. What exactly did you do?


[Modified by MaddMatt, 6:12 PM 4/23/2002]

 

Around 4 months as I mentioned earlier.
What I did was drive around at around 70km/h and braking lightly and progressively harder until i thought they were up to operating temps. Then, just cool them down.

 

you may not have heated them up enough to properly bed them in. I remember the consensus was, once you see sparks they are ready.

 

I'm guessing you didn't get them up to temp on the bed-in. If they didn't fade on you when bedding, you didn't get then hot enough. Mine always fade horribly when I'm out late at night bedding them in.

 

If the break-in procedure is anything like Hawk Blues, the brakes pretty much get smokingly hot, stink, and apparently throw sparks at night. And yah, they definitely don't work in the least bit after you finish the procedure.

Chris, who ended up having to bed his Blues during daytime on an empty road in the country, then while travelling 20mph under the 55mph limit during the cooldown was confronted with two police cruisers travelling in the opposite direction at maybe 90mph, sirens blaring... using both lanes of the two-lane road for some unknown reason.

 

Just to muddy the waters -- I ran Hawk Blues last weekend. They were terrible. Great on lap 2, 3 and 4, seriously heat-soaked for the rest of the session. The last 2 sets of Blues I used were fantastic (same car setup). I dunno if Hawk changed the compound or what.

Based on a lot of positive comments, I'm going to give Carbotech a try.

 

Somebody recently told me Hawk did change their Blue compound to be more rotor friendly. Anyone confirm???

Jimbob: Also, what year Talon was this? AWD? The early ones had terrible (small) brakes.


[Modified by MaddMatt, 8:55 PM 4/23/2002]

 

The Talon was a 97 TSI AWD. I know it didn't have great brakes to begin with and it's a pretty damn heavy car too. The bedding in procedure was done during the day, but I didn't personally oversee the task, so I can't really say if it was done the way I would have bedded in my own pads. According to the owner, it was done correctly.

I've used many pads on many cars in the past, and IMHO, the performance of the pads were subpar to what I expected. There's still possibility that something was done wrong, but we're trying to get to the bottom of this

If Hawk changed the compound to their Blues, I'd be dissapointed. I'm not sure why they would tho. A lot of ppl are using Hawk Blues because they're tested and true. Unless of course it's a ploy to get us to buy their more expensive HT line of compounds!

 

My ATE fluid boiled long before I could discern any P+ pad fade. Except during bed in. Smoked'em and got massive fade. Also, did you mate the pads to the rotors properly?

From Carbotech's web site FAQ:
Further, when changing from one brake compound to another, especially when switching from a "carbon-metallic", "carbon-kevlar", or "ferro-carbon" brake pad to a ceramic-based brake compound, such as Carbotech Engineering's line of proprietary compounds (namely Panther Plus and Panther), it is necessary to turn your rotors to remove any existing friction material deposits on the rotor.

Break in instructions from Carbotech's web site:
(1) Brake from 50mph down to 10mph using moderate pedal pressure.
Repeat this process 6 to 8 times in succession.
(2) Cool down the brakes by driving for 10-15 minutes on the highway.
Avoid having to use the brakes during this cool-down period.
(3) Repeat step (1), but use very heavy pedal pressure.
Brakes may fade during this set of braking, so please use caution.
(4) Repeat step (2).
(5) Park the car for 4 to 6 hours after the brakes are cooled down.
Allowing the pads to "rest" overnight is preferred.

Cars with a curb weight of over 3000lb. may require one "light" track session to sufficiently heat up the pads, followed by a good cool down period, in order to ensure both pad longevity and maximum potential brake torque.

-allen


[Modified by alu95, 8:18 AM 4/24/2002]

 

My P+ have held up GREAT at 2 events at Roebling Road and 1 event at Sebring Full Course. My latest trip to Sebring I started the day with way to thin of a pad thinking I could get away without switching to my spare set and I was wrong. They held up the first 2 sessions but then I faded the pad. I was running Ate and the pedal was still there. This has nothing to do with the P+, the same thing will happen to ANY pad you run that thin due to the lack of thermal capacity...inability to absorb heat.

How old were the pads you were running and faded? Did you check. Thin pads WILL fade. Blues, R4's, P+...

Here is a pic of my toasted P+


This pic was taken with macro function. Look at the pad in relation to the backing plate.


How much pad was

 

Yes, we are working on this to determine what the problem is. I'm sure jimbob will keep the forum updated. It is unfortunate that their vehicle is located so far away from me (Canada --> Florida), else I'd just drive over and check it out myself...ah well, the beauty of the internet and telephones.

Even if the P+ pads are not bedded in properly, they will still brake well straight out of the box. I'm going to need more information from jimbob (which he will get soon) before we can move on this one...

-Andie

 

I used my P+ this weekend at CMP and had absolutely no fade at all. Temperature was 90 F or higher - ran 6 x 20minute sessions over the weekend.
The pads had a weekend at VIR full on them already, so I was expecting to use them up this weekend and I did. CMP is tough on brakes and even though I got them almost down to the rivets, I had NO fade - the brakes worked very well.
The bed-in process is really critical to pad wear and fading - if you don't smell them when bedding them, they aren't heated up enough.

 

I'm making a guess that whoever bedded them in for you didn't get the job done, but you sure did on lap 7. I would also make a guess that if you put them back on right now, they would be rock-solid. This is the first case I've heard of anyone saying "Panther pads couldn't stop my car."

 

I have been thinking about going to the driving school in Summit Point at Hyper Fest, and I am trying to figure out what brake pads I need to run on the fronts because I don't want to melt my OEM pads. I have brand new OEM rotors and don't want to chew them up too bad. I was looking at the Hawk HP Plus-High Performance Street PLUS Race Worthy. Are these good pads for that type of application and will they chew up my rotors? They're only like $60-70 bux for the set so they sound like a good deal. Any info or other suggestions is much appreciated!


[Modified by slickboy, 5:08 PM 4/24/2002]

 

HP+ will not get the job done at Summit Pt.

 

That left at the bottom of the hill can cause problems if caught off guard for any reason.

 

What do you suggest for pads then with OEM rotors?

 

Panther+/Panther XP
R4
Hawk Blue

Panthers and R4 can be driven on the street somewhat, so you can change them at home and drive to the track. The Blues must never be driven on the street.

Run very far away from EBC pads.

 

You do late night bedding too eh!

 

What about the CarboTech's? Which model would I use and can I run those with stock rotors?


[Modified by slickboy, 8:04 PM 4/24/2002]

 

Panther + will be fine for anything you do on track.

They are a bit expensive... but worth it for use on track.