Hypothetical question time... experts, please give me your opinions!

For the last few months I have been secretly thinking about keeping my beater SE-R for pure daily driver status and building a dedicated road course car for next season. Not something for competition, just for pure fun.

I've placed a $12k cap on getting the car safely trackable. That is, I want the car to be ready for that price or not much more (but preferrably less). That price includes any mechanical replenishment necessary on top of modifications/upgrades, and various preventative measures as well (bearings/hubs, control arms, bushings, brakes, driveshafts, etc as needed.) That price does not include consumables like tires, brakes, batteries, alternators, etc once the car is together.

What I was thinking about was finding the best shell I could, perhaps in need of bodywork or major mechanicals, then making some sort of swap or major mod as appropriate, using as many existing and complete parts as I could. I could start with a super cheap auction car or junkyard car, since most of the stuff underneath would be replaced or freshened anyway.

FWIW, I'm trying to avoid rebuilding a motor for the time being, since I don't have the skillz to do it myself (or the $$$ to pay someone else to) and I'm really just a hobbyist mechanic at best. Luckily, I do have the after-hours help of a couple of the best mechanics in this town (IMHO) for a project like this, which will be very helpful I'm sure.

I know I could buy a wide variety of used IT cars for less than $12k, but... I'm really not thinking about a full-bore racecar yet. This hypothetical project car will have fairly stiff suspension and good brakes and all the safety goodies and an LSD of course, but it won't need a kill switch and 1000 pound springs and a fully gutted interior (etc). I want to retain just enough of the creature comforts to make the car street legal (and able to be driven to and from the track if necessary) but not enough that the car could/would ever be a daily driver. That is, I will make many compromises in the name of performance, but not ALL of them.

Now, on to the candidates. After years of FWD, I really want my next track car to be RWD... but I also want something fairly light and nimble and responsive. I also want something that will be decently quick... a bit of a sleeper / giant-killer, actually... and definitely easy/fun to drive. But most importantly, I want it to be reliable. I don't mind maintenance because it's inevitable, but I don't want to be replacing motors or transmissions every year either.

I've narrowed the possibilities down to four so far. I'm sure there are many other suitable choices, but for now, let's just pretend that I've narrowed it down to these:

1) 89-94 Nissan 240SX with J-spec SR20DET. Goal would be ~200whp and ~2600 pounds. Fits me, and seems like a lot of fun on paper. But too heavy? Too much wheelbase perhaps? Still reliable with turbo setup?

2) 84-92 BMW 3-series coupe with hybrid E30 2.7 or used E36 2.8 motor. Goal would be 180+whp and ~2400 pounds. Excellent chassis and great engines. But reliable/affordable long-term compared to Japanese, or not?

3) 91-94 Miata with a supercharger. Goal would be ~150whp and ~2100 pounds. An absolute blast to drive, I'm sure. But perhaps too small for me (6 feet, 230 pounds)? Still reliable with forced induction?

4) Early 911 with later (2.7 or larger) mechanicals. Goal would be ~170whp and ~2300 pounds. Legendary, but potentially weird-handling and too quirky? Again, perhaps to small for me? And perhaps too expensive, especially when something major goes wrong?


Of the four, I'm really leaning toward the BMW so far. Long story short: they
make nice noises and even totally stock, they are a blast to drive. But, I've heard and seen plenty of E30 horror stories. And I'm not entirely certain yet that it can be done correctly within my budget.

Anyway- it's kind of a strange question, I know. But I would love to hear some opinions. Remember: fun, quick, nimble, reliable, affordable.

Thanks in advance!!!

Jon



[Modified by getfast, 3:35 PM 4/20/2002]

 

Why bother with the supercharger on the Miata? Just prep one to roughly the same spec as MARRS SM. It's a proven formula that is gainling popularity.

The suspension is better than the SRX-7 setup. Coilovers with Bilsteins.

The car is more powerful. At least 120rwhp. And the motor will last for years, instead of months.

And it's less work to make track-worthy (ie tie rods and balljoints and stuff are probably ok).

It'll be good for 1:30-1:31 at Summit, which would be just off the ITA pace (whereas the SRX-7 is good for 1:32). Everybody I know who's driven one likes the setup - not too hard to drive fast, but still very much a momentum car.

And you can't beat Mazda Comp for parts at cost as long as you do a few competition events a year (autocross, track, 1320, as long as you can show them a time slip).


[Modified by Crack Monkey, 3:10 PM 4/20/2002]

 

Interesting problem. I'd probably just buy someone else's race car and make it street legal. Or I might try to convince Madame Geezer that she really does need an Excursion to go to the grocery store, and BTW, I'd be a lot safer towing my car to the track than driving it. But then I'm lazy, and don't have skilled help.

Sport Compact Car (All right, everybody, stop hissing. They've got better) has a nice article about a S13/SR20DET hybrid in their May issue. They get into detail about which years/body styles/motors make the best combos. Seems a pretty reasonable-cost swap, especially if the cost of labor isn't a concern. Standard wear item stuff should be pretty cheap. Don't know the aftermarket for 240SX suspension bits, though.

I'm doubtful of finding a solid Porsche roller, a decent motor, all the wear items, and putting it all together for 12 large. Would probably take skill, luck, and the sacrifice of a goat or two. Also, after you got the thing built, you might be afraid to take it out on the track and break something.

An E30 BMW might be nice. Looking in GRM, it appears there's a pretty good after-market, and bits aren't extremely expensive. Lots of folks have gone that way.

Think the Miata might be a bit tight. Also not much room for stuff, unless you get a trailer.

A last thought. Bodywork is always more expensive than you think. I'd be more concerned, and more careful, about getting a straight, rust-free shell than anything else.

 

I thought about this earlier and ruled it out, Al. Honestly I'm not looking to build a dedicated racecar, and... mostly stock Miatas are too low on power for the kind of project I'm talking about. I want something that's stupid quick on the straights too. I want a car that requires careful modulation of the throttle coming out of a corner because it can snap sideways way too easily... know what I mean? Not a "momentum" car like a SM or a SRX7. And definitely not something like an SE-R, where you're on the gas just as soon as you turn-in toward the apex. Hope that makes sense

Thanks,

Jon

 

That article is the most recent part of what made me consider the project. Too bad all they wanted to do was talk about what a great 'drifter' it was... hence my earlier question about whether or not it's still too heavy and not quite nimble enough for my hypothetical goals. There are plenty of suitable suspension choices for such a project, from what I've seen, and I know the SR20DET can be solid, but I'm still not sure that this is the perfect solution.

BTW, the cost of labor is not a concern... "it's who you know" sometimes



I agree with the fear factor, but I know it can be done because I already know of a '75 911S roller in great shape, and the mechanicals from a front-impact '84? Carrera... that could be purchased for less than 7 grand combined. That would leave me 5 grand to do the rest... which is possible. Maybe not likely, but possible.



Hence the appeal... If GRM approves, I'm pretty damn sure it's a lot of bang for the buck. Also, my roommate is currently bringing an '84 323i gray-market former BSR/BMWCCA instructor's car back to life, which isn't helping anything. It sounds SOOOO good, and I know it's SOOOO fun to drive...

Thanks for your thoughts, Jerry!

Jon
who knows this is an impossible question, but greatly appreciates these kinds of quality opinions for sure

 

Okay, another vote for the s13 SR project. At VIR/ST in Feb, I was the greyish s14 and my buddy had the black s13.
Agreed the SCC article is over the top and a bit ambitious on cost - trust me, you cannot get that deal anymore! However, 200 whp at 2600# is very attainable in that car. First off, the cost of a clip is up to about $2000-2400, best case. Better still, if you think that a newer engine is better, is to spring the $2600ish or so for the 180sx black-top s13 motor. Same output, but you are don't risk getting a 10 year old motor. $200 Greddy oil pan. $800 fmic. $450 exhaust. $couple hundred for odd gauges for you protection. With that, you should be at about 200 to the wheels. Add a boost controller and you can go up to about 14psi w/ the stock turbo - internals warrant concern above 20. At 14 psi w/ and exhaust, fmic, BOV, and EBC there are plenty of guys putting down near 250 whp. Otherwise, the DET is just as reliable as the DE. There are a few of the originators running mild packages like this w/ 60K of hard mileage and no major mechanical failures. As for weight, the car in luxo trim is out of the box at 2700 w/ the SR. Coupes are a little lighter and stronger. Either way, removing the useless rear seats and the nightmare exhaust should put you at about 2600. There is more weight to be lost, but more to be added too, as they make every reinforcement bar under the sun for those cars

Brakes are easy - NA 300zx fronts bolt right up (although I've have plenty of brakes w/ my factory calipers and Panther +). JY parts + new lines + pads can be had for about $450. Suspension for the s13 is what ever you want. Out of the box, the 240 is a pretty nible car. Near 50/50 distribution, not too heavy, tight steering, and a surprisingly small feel for such a big car. It is a bit odd b/c the hood is longer than FWD (that one took me a while). GCs and AGXs, GABs, Tokico HTS, or virtually any Japanese coilover system you can imagine. JIC's, Zeals, Teins, etc. start at about $1400 (many w/ pillow mounts that prevent the need for a camber kit which is req'd for any decent 240 suspension). Another driveline must have - LSD from a 240 or J30 will bolt up and cost about $300 from your local used parts lot. s13 seats suck! You can find people selling s14 seats or just get an aftermarket set.

Wear items on a car of that age are: the rear subframe bushings (Nismo = $200) - a PITA to replace b/c you have to remove the subframe, torch the old ones out and install new ones (inserts are available to reduce the play of the bushings and be installed w/o removal). T/C rods are a common culprit, but can be replaced w/ adjustable units for about $300 (some w/ deflectors that push air to the brakes ). Most of the other suspension items hold up pretty well. Other things to look out for are HUD in coupes - it breaks - a lot. Rust on the rear near the spoiler, if any. Oh yeah - avoid Hicas. It breaks and it introduces a degree of unpredictability that makes most serious driver/owners disable it. Plus, it weighs an extra 30 or so pounds (although it comes w/ LSD).

Okay, so there's about $6750 in upgrades. So you find a shell for $1500-2500 and add in the consumables and the miscellaneous expenses and you are at about $10,000. Maybe not the SCC budget special, but what I've described is very realistic... and the path that I am slowly taking w/ my s14. Remember, if you decide to turn it into a racer later, 89-90 is ITA, the rest go to ITS (where a few boys down in GA and FL make a decent showing of the car). Maybe not a perfect solution, but from my research, it is a supportable, low cost (parts and chassis), set up that should be a lot of fun.

some sites: http://www.pdm-racing.com</a> (Don has been playing w/ his s13 for years and has a great history section on upgrades), the message boards at freshalloy.com , and <A HREF="http://www.heavythrottle.com" TARGET="_blank">http://www.heavythrottle.com (swap info).

Sorry for the run on... but, as you may have noticed, there aren't too many 240 guys, so I had to represent, yO
*edit* one other thing: I know Alex Chang in Cali has a very well set up s13 track toy and is involved w/ ST out there. Maybe you can use your *clout* to get a solid email reply from him on set up and cost *edit*

Mark
-who is the kid in the arcade w/o a quarter thanks to the Graduate Loan Center


[Modified by HippoSleek, 5:49 PM 4/21/2002]

 

LOL George. The white '73 911T at Matt's that is currently heading toward being a Carrera RS-looking track toy got me really thinking. That project will cost less than $12k (including market value of donor car), although it has a 2.4 instead of a 2.7 or better. But, it's indicative of what old "driver" 911's can be like, when cosmetics and originality are not a huge issue. I know the guy who owns that car pretty well, and I'm sure he would be a great coach/helper if I took on my own 911 project. And, as I said, I do know of a '75 roller and a front-impact '83 SC 3.0L (just found out it's not an 84 Carrera 3.2 after all) that could be combined. Decisions decisions...

As for the BMW- you saw that junky 320 (aborted ITB project) at Matt's, which is worth about 200 bucks and way too rusty. My roommate's "new" E30 323i is much, much, much nicer.



Well I am on a diet, but my height isn't going to change. There's just something so damn fun and tossable about Miatas, though. I also know they are very reliable and affordable to maintain. Decisions decisions!



But that's just the thing... I don't really want FWD, I can't afford new/recent (mostly the insurance due to my, uh, unique driving record), and I'm can't think of stock anything in my price range that suits my desires. I also want something that has a wide selection of donor replacement shells, for if/when I ball it up.

As for taking on a project... well, that's the "glutton for punishment" in me. As I develop my mechanical skills, I get the foolish urge to take on bigger projects. Luckily, I have pros like Matt happy to assist when I get in over my head, which I almost certainly will.

Thanks for the opinions- please keep 'em coming!

Jon

 

That's what I'm talkin' bout! Awesome reply, thanks SO much Mark!!!

I'll have some questions for you privately soon, I'm sure.

Thanks again,

Jon

 

Getfast, the S50/S52 motor is straight bolt in in the E30 chassis (Through my sources in BMP Design). You will have to modify your brake booster for sure. They also utilized a multi-throttle body intake manifold that had to be customized too. The intake chamber (?) had to re-welded to fit in the E30 chassis.

If you want to use the stock intake manifold (which is made of plastic), honestly, I dont know whether itll fit or not (Im sure it will).

The E30 M3 have alot of potential (ask Warren), but when I worked at BMP design, customers kept on ordering parts left and right because they break parts, or the perisherable parts wear FAST.

If I can build an ultimate track car. I would do an EG.

Good luck with your venture.

 

Thanks! I definitely need more BMW info. I hope Mike Whitney sees this soon

PS- I'm avoiding an M3 project for the same reason I'm avoiding a Porsche 951 project... yes I could get a good running donor within my price range, but that doesn't account for mods and maintenance. And I have seen some really big routine repair bills first-hand from great-condition examples of those two models specifically. Also, there is still the aforementioned insurance problem for street-legality with anything like an M3 or 951. Decisions decisions!!!

Thanks again,

Jon
who has already pretty much narrowed it down to the 240 or the E30...

 

i would think it will be easier to get a quality 951 vs the older 911. the 951 is newer and has a large aftermarket.

 

i think the cheapest, most reliable car you have listed is the supercharged miata. i'm sure you'll fit once you alter the seat height!

 

Your budget cap is 12k, and you don't want to start with a racecar, so that is really going to limit your options. I know several people who track E30 bimmers, and I promise you, unless you are a certified mechanic with a steady access to cheap parts, the bimmer will eat you alive in costs.
Limiting yourself to a rear driver is going to make it all the more difficult, considering you now have fewer cars to pick from.
Here's something you might not have considered, and it's a little radical, so bear with me.
You ready?
American iron.
No kidding. There is nothing out there that is cheaper. It is entirely possible to get a clean, straight, rust free body in a 4-5 year old car, with a v8 and a manual.
Shop around auto trader. Nice running examples of pony cars/F bodies are available for 5-6k. Peanuts, really.
There are also plenty of SSC ACR neons available for 4-5k, still streetable, but track ready, but you said no FWD.
Moral of the story? It's cheaper to buy american, though not necessarily better.
I am not advocating one thing over another, but if you are capping yourself at 12k, and you need rear drive, that is a contender in my book. Just something to consider.
My .02...
-Chris, who respects the fact that the more you save, the more you can track it, and sooner.

 

Jon, have you thought about an RX3? Having seen an ITA prepped one at VIR in the SARRC (2:23s at VIR Full - John Snook, very tall guy on the size issue btw), I was blown away by how much power that thing puts down - maybe it was an exception to the rule but I wouldn't have thought of them to be that strong. And unless my eyes were deceiving me, it looked like a RWD (am I wrong on that?). Also, the Miata should not be a size issue. Chuck Reynolds is over 6' and 250ish lbs. and he seems to fit in his fine - might want to call OPM and see if they did anything more than bolt his seat to the floor (I don't think so). Also, fwiw, Tom Fowler was saying that they ran in the 53's in Pro SM (Kumhos vs. Toyos the only difference??) at CMP so I don't think power is a problem either.

 

Jon, along the lines of something else that you did not mention. How about an old Datsun 510? RWD, 4-wheel independent suspension, and you can stuff just about whatever engine you want in those. I've seen just about everything from a Nissan 2.4 to a Turbo Rotary in those...
great sleeper, I think that the aftermarket support is out there, the only problem being finding one in good shape with a straight body.

and another that just came to mind, maybe a little out there, but... a 260/280Z with a 350 Chevy... maybe a little nose heavy, but most definitely quick! Again, a crap-load of aftermarket support. Small blocks are cheap, 260/280Z shells should be cheap...

just a thought.

 

Jon- as a former 951 owner/track driver, I can say that it is a beautiful bang for the buck, roomy, great aftermarket, sweet handling, etc. As you mentioned, if something goes wrong with the engine and you don't do the work yourself, you may really have to open the wallet WIDE. If you find a well-maintained car you can meet your budget (barely) or you can find a rough example for well less than 7-8k.
Great fun to drive - not fun to rebuild the engine.

 

I was just going to sugest that. 3rd gen F-bodies are plentiful and well within your price range. 4th gen are just beginning to drop into your price range.

Hmmm...
$3000 for a good driver Z28
$2500 in boltons (including some Sportsman heads)
$500 big honking carb or TB
$300 chip
$300 3.73 ring/pinion
$300 Eaton LSD

The above will be good for 13s in the 1320. Add a rollbar and safety gear for $1000 at most. Wheels, tires for another $1600. $1000 into misc front end bits. That leaves several thousand for suspension and brake development.

Dobyn's AS Camaro is good for 1:25s at Summit. I'd guess his car puts 275-300hp to the ground. Rumor has it one could get nearly 400hp on engine dyno in AS trim, but I haven't seen any dyno charts to verify the figure.

 

Hi Jon -- Excellent question! I'm having fun just "hyothetically" spending all your money for you

To tell you the truth -- if I didn't give a **** about autocrossing, I would be looking to do exactly what you're talking about. I'm trying to stay legal in DSP, so it shuts down a lot of options (and $$!).

So, here's what I would do if I were you (and I WOULD do if I stopped autocrossing). I am prejudiced to the BMW hybrid route, for all of the reasons I bought my E30 325is.

PROS: Cheap parts (despite myths to the contrary), easy to work on, pretty durable, pretty reliable, some sleeper factor, good road car, LOTS of aftermarket, technical, and peer support. Good at everything, great at nothing. Cheap.

CONS: Having to put up with some people that have the BMW "attitude" (the minority), M20 motor has a couple of reliability issues, tough to make a lot of power in an M20 motor, lack of sex appeal Tough to get really low weight.

Mike's recipe for a fast, fun, reliable, sleeper, $12k track car/driver

- 1989 (best year) 325is with a high-mile/worn motor = $4k
- Aluminum-block (light) 2.8l motor & trans from a Z3 = $2k?
(Terry did this in an E30 M3)
- Chip, cone filter, custom exhaust work = $1k
- Ground control suspension, Koni yellows, bushings, etc. = $2k
- Autopower cage & harnesses = $1k
- Wheels & tires = $1k
- Maintenance stuff and things I'm forgetting = $1k
- Pull the carpet, remove all the asphalt insulation, replace carpet = free

OK, I already spent all your money. But there is one weak point I'm ignoring - brakes. Here's what needs to be done to ANY track 325is with power: Big brake kit $1k (https://secure2.nexternal.com/shared...?RowID=223&All

If you ditched A/C, insulation, and back seats, and picked up light front seats, you'd probably be at about 2600 with a full cage. Probably about 220 crank HP from that motor w/boltons.

It'll use the whole budget, but this would be a superb track car Another way to do this is to buy a DE-prepped E30 325is (I see these appear about 2x/year) for $8-10k, and use the rest for the motor swap. My thoughts about your other choices:

240SX w/DET = Wow. That would be cool. But I think you're going into uncharted territory there. Scary.

Blown Miata = Hmmm. I don't know about you, but I want more car around me on track. Might get brake issues there too. Also, the only Miatas I have ever heard of people having engine problems with were blown.

911 = that is a very expensive road you're looking down. Are you sure you want to go there? Zero sleeper factor, and the Porsche ****** are much prickier than the BMW ******

 

Jon, I have to echo Whitneys statements here. Every Miata I've ever known to have problems at the track have been force fed. The urge to turn up the boost is a great one, and it generally kills the engine. This goes for the Silvia idea as well.

After viewing the ECHC this weekend, how 'bout a N/A hybrid? Pete (Pest on this board) has a flesh-peeling B20 hybrid that he claims only set him back 8 large. Yack's hybrid is a race winning car with full interior and a system. His car has never broken at the track (that I know of) Yack!!! Want a Nissan? OK, no problem. SR20VE (186 hp and more torque than a Type Rs wet dream) in a nice, light B13 shell?

Hmm...I wonder if you could get that into a 240SX.....

 

I'm gonna throw in my vote for a Honda hybrid. For under $10K you can build a track car that's faster than an ITS car, is daily drivable, is reliable, and is fun. Here's the recipe:

1. Old Civic or CRX: 1000-2500 depending on condition
2. B-series drivetrain and associated swap stuff: 4000 on the high end
3. Fastbrakes brake kit: 500 or so I think
4. Suspension: 1500 for pretty good stuff
5. 500 for wheels
6. 600 for tires
7. Bolt-in rollbar: 400

I'm at 10000 on the nose with this equation, and I still have a streetable (as in, drive it to the track) car that'll be fast as hell and won't break. For the spare 2000 you could fund some of the weekend expenses, and buy a limited slip if your drivetrain didn't have one already.

I've ridden on track in a few hybrids now and they're awfully damn impressive. Phillip Ambrose has one currently that's my ideal car. EG Civic chassis with a Type R drivetrain, nice seats/harnesses, and a bolt in rollbar. Mmm mmm good.

 

And... to echo Matt's statements -- after watching Yack ripping around the track, I am getting much more serious thoughts about selling my daily-driver GSR and using the $$ to fund a street hybrid for future H1 use. The thought of a 2200# car with 220HP makes me giggle like a little school girl.

If you really want RWD, you could always just drive it around backwards

 

My understanding is the 2.7 is best avoided-- it has the lowest average lifespan of early 911 engines. See http://www.rennlist.org/FAQ/sect3.html#q3.2

The 3.0L SC engine is supposed to be much more reliable.

I vote for the p-car because I love 911s

--buji

 

Legal for ECHC? Under the rules it looks like it... but you'd might have a hard time getting good compression with the engine, since the bottom end must use stock honda parts. B18C of some sort might be better, since you can use ITR/CTR pistons

For ECHC, everything was removed except the dash, cd player, cupholders and seat/harness.

[quote]Yack's hybrid is a race winning car with full interior and a system. His car has never broken at the track (that I know of) Yack!!! QUOTE]

 

Aaaargh! More choices... My head might explode! (Or I might just shut up and get a Ducati 900SP instead...)

510 = nearly impossible to find a good donor, fabrication involved, etc. Although the next pre-built hybrid-powered mostly restored one I find on ebay might be worth considering.

Mustang, Camaro, etc = too heavy, too much wheelbase, solid rear axle, and I'm not a huge fan of low revs (or pushrods, really). Essentially, I don't want anything that requires 275-$ized tire$ to get decent grip.

350 in 240/280 = too nose-heavy, hard to find solid donors, even the newest are still old, no real appeal unless I buy one pre-done. (Not much of a V8 guy here...)

RX-3 = awesome if I can stuff a streetported 13b with Webers under there and still stay within my budget. (Same for 1st & 2nd gen RX-7's, really...)

2.8 hybrid E30 = damn near perfect for this project (thanks Mike!!!)

Also, another idea brought up recently was an Alfa Romeo GTV-6 with a single turbo conversion. Not cheap to maintain, but definitely unique.

If I am going to stay with FWD, it really makes sense to spend another $4-5k and get the SE-R up to snuff... instead of starting over. I'm set to see & ride in an SR20VE-powered classic at Carlisle in 2 weeks, so I'll know more about it then.

I would love to do a Honda, but... that's kinda played-out these days.

Thanks again to all for the great ideas and suggestions!

Jon
who knows he might be insane

 

Perhaps, but something like a Yack/Pete hybrid meets everyone of your requirements: