I was having a little conversation with a friend about this.
Givin' silimar suspension setups will the extra weight of the H22 and placement make it slower? I just can't imagine a little weight savings with the B18C offsetting its obvious lack of mid-range torque compared to the H22. Stock to stock they offer similar WHP but the torque difference is big anywhere in the power band.
As I said to him, maybe I am translating the H22 Hatches huge str8 line advantage into RoadRacing incorrectly. I just see the EXIT-Torque as being superior by anywhere from 15-35 with an H22, more than enough to offset a measily 50lbs or so.
With the same driver, against a clock....



Modified by NirVTECn2o at 3:07 AM 6/21/2006

 

Would this be on a EG hatch or a sedan?

I think the biggest debate we'll get on this forum is the offset of the weight bias... I believe that our cars were definitely designed to be front heavy (ie around 60f/40r stock) and the suspension deals with it accordingly. But I wonder if you increase that bias too much (ie with an H22, maybe 68f/32r?) you might offset that balance to the point of a poorer handling suspension setup. Of course, spring stiffness can definitely aid in re-balancing the car, but I think that you might actually lose in overall handling with the heavier H22 (i know it's not *that* much more than a B18C5).

But if this is true, exactly how much potential would you lose by using the H22 over the ITR engine? I doubt it's very much... And whatever it may be (if anything) I think it's safe to say that the extra torque of the H22 would make up for the slightly slower turns..

Just thinking out loud.

Personally, I'd get an H22 just because it's cheaper, and I think you'll have similar, if not the same (if not better?) lap times as opposed to going with the C5..

 

Definately an EG Hatch....
I am almost saying if you had 2 Cars setup identical, as many teams have multiple cars. And even if it meant running a slightly stiffer suspension on the H22 hatch, so be it. If it meant going from a 800 to 1000lb spring. Who cares. I just see a car that has that much more mid-range torque not being affected by some minor weight change. We're not talking about a B16 vs B18.

 

maybe mikeski38 will chime in about his h22a and how it does power wise agaisnt others

 

If I were thinking only of the numbers (including cost, weight, torque and horse power) I would go for the torque. But, the H-series/Civic combo is a tight fit and would not be my first choice if I had to change a clutch or an alternator. (God forbid if its a street car with A/C.) Also, I like torque. And cheap, low-revving engines. Other drivers place a higher priority on vehicle balance and braking. So its really more than just a numbers thing. It depends just as much upon the owner/driver/mechanic's preferences and priorities as the empirical data...

Thawley

 

Well said!

 

very interesting question......

lets add a bit to the equation; say you are racing in H1.

your choices are B power or H power (K power isn't in the equation).

do you choose B power at 2250 lbs or H power at 2400 lbs? is there really much of a handling difference with the H motor?

we know for a fact that the brakes and tires are gonna take more of a beating at 2400 lbs; plus i bet the front tires are gonna be strained a bit more coming out of slower turns with that H powerplant spinning them up.....

interesting questions; hopefully sometime soon we might have some solid data to answer these questions?

i gotta believe that an H powered car is gonna be torquey as hell (ain't NO replacement for displacement)!

todd

 

great thread as i am also building a H22 CRX.

 

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1608255

there is an h22a DC integra for sale

here are some pictures of it. http://norcalhondaracing.com/Pics/Mike/

Car is very fast in a stright line, and the handeling was decent, the biggest issue is the car needs bigger brakes, and more pad then when he ran it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd Reid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">very interesting question......

lets add a bit to the equation; say you are racing in H1.

your choices are B power or H power (K power isn't in the equation).

do you choose B power at 2250 lbs or H power at 2400 lbs? is there really much of a handling difference with the H motor?

we know for a fact that the brakes and tires are gonna take more of a beating at 2400 lbs; plus i bet the front tires are gonna be strained a bit more coming out of slower turns with that H powerplant spinning them up.....

interesting questions; hopefully sometime soon we might have some solid data to answer these questions?

i gotta believe that an H powered car is gonna be torquey as hell (ain't NO replacement for displacement)!

todd</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not in the know on the Honda Challenge rulebook, but is the H2b adapter out of the question? I'd say that the B series trannies are &gt; H series trannies, but I would guess H22's have more potential than B18's.

 

I would have to guess that an H22 CRX would only be good as a Drag Car. I don't know much about their Specs, so please correct me if I am wrong.
I guess thats kind of the idea....H1!
At that point I would rather have an H1 Prelude like Cory has. 2400lbs with cage and driver slapping down over 230whp!!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NirVTECn2o &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would have to guess that an H22 CRX would only be good as a Drag Car. I don't know much about their Specs, so please correct me if I am wrong.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'd say that you are wrong

 

Hey, if you can make an CRX H22 work, more power to you. I just assumed the weight would be too much for it. Isn't it considerably lighter than an EG?
When I hear H22-CRX I automatically think L'Natural's 10 Second Drag Car.

so back to H22 EG vs B18C-R EG........

 

if you had to identical cars (eg hatch) with same brakes/suspension etc and all that differed was the engine/tranny i would say the h22a powered car will be faster.

between my friends, brother & I we have owned almost every single combo you can put in a hatch other than a k20.

by far the most "torquey" and fun to drive was a stock h22a eg hatch. dynoed 182/152.

my b18c-r hatch would be second with 186/130 (b18c was faster in a straight line by a hair)

ive got another shell im building up soon. its gonna be h22a powered. my two cars will be identical as far as brakes, suspension, etc. i cant wait to compare the two once they are finisihed.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 88 rex &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm not in the know on the Honda Challenge rulebook, but is the H2b adapter out of the question? </TD></TR></TABLE>
9.3 Hybrid Vehicles Only
In addition to any unmodified part from any Honda or Acura model, market, or generation, the following components are unrestricted:
• Brake Systems
• Engine cylinder head porting (“from the block up”)
• Engine Management Systems
• Compression Ratio
• Fasteners (e.g. bolts) anywhere in the engine
• Valve preparation (angle, cut, etc) but not size or material
• Valve Springs, valve locks ,valve retainers, and valve shims
• Camshaft (except “K” series)
• Camshaft gears (including adjustable)
• Fuel Pumps, fuel Injectors, fuel rails
• Engine and transmission mounts, and associated components (shift linkages, etc) required to perform an engine/drive train swap

I'd say you'd be fine running a B-series gearbox with an H-series. I know a drag racer who runs ZC/first gen Integra trannies with H/F-series motors. He says they're lighter AND have beefier gears...

 

H22 engine and tranny stock is around 40lbs more then stock B18c5
H1 race preped engine/tranny will only weigh around 20 lbs more


H22 = much cheaper
H22 trannies have the same selectors/syncros as a B series tranny.

230/170 on the dyno with mine, with nothing crazy done at all (stock head porting/not milled)

Sadly, no one will buy it..

 

I think its everyones way of telling you to keep it dude!

I would love to own that car, I can't justify a 4th Honda, especially a RACE car!

Thanks for the input!!

To the previous post, I don't know how that B18c5 Hatch was faster by a hair in a str8 line, I have to say driver error there or the motor is not running as it should!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
9.3 Hybrid Vehicles Only
In addition to any unmodified part from any Honda or Acura model, market, or generation, the following components are unrestricted:
• Brake Systems
• Engine cylinder head porting (“from the block up”)
• Engine Management Systems
• Compression Ratio
• Fasteners (e.g. bolts) anywhere in the engine
• Valve preparation (angle, cut, etc) but not size or material
• Valve Springs, valve locks ,valve retainers, and valve shims
• Camshaft (except “K” series)
• Camshaft gears (including adjustable)
• Fuel Pumps, fuel Injectors, fuel rails
• Engine and transmission mounts, and associated components (shift linkages, etc) required to perform an engine/drive train swap

I'd say you'd be fine running a B-series gearbox with an H-series. I know a drag racer who runs ZC/first gen Integra trannies with H/F-series motors. He says they're lighter AND have beefier gears...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks

If I were building an H1 car, I would say that would be a fairly reliable/powerful/competitive option to look into.

 

i dont know the rules in your competition but i own a prelude with h22 and i dont know the requirements on modding but the H22 has tons of potential. The torque potential for an h22 is from what i hear a lot more then the b series motors. Remeber torque gets you down the line not hp, but im not sure what exactly your trying to do. Im new to this site and to import cars (since new years of this year) so yea

 

I had an h22 in my hatch and I swapped it out in favor of a gsr. Both have had lsd's and in my opinion the gsr is much better suited for the car. As far as handling I also lean towards the gsr heavily. Even if the weight difference is slight the car rarely understeers with the gsr and i a night and day differenc from the h22. Also from my experiences the b series tranny's are much better due to the rod linkage being much more percise. As far as maintenance it is now fairly simple to do a timing belt or clutch replacement.(with the h22 i always removed the entire engine for this). just my experiences and opinions b18c h22

 

Awesome!
Great replies everyone!

I would be curious for the people that have Had an H22 Hatch to list out what their suspension setup was.
I would hate to see someone saying their GSR or TypeR hatch with Tokico/H&R handled better than their H22 Hatch with the same suspension setup. I wouldn't even argue that. Its very clear that an H22 Hatch needs some extra attention to suspension, but if thats all thats needed for the huge amounts of extra mid-range torque.....Its not even a question of IF, its a question of HOW...much that is.
Does an H22 hatch with comparable handling to a B18 hatch need such insane suspension that it would only be usuable on the roadcourse, and not a wise choice for the street? Anyone?
i mean would it be safe to say that a B18C-R hatch can handle as well with much less suspension work than an H22 hatch.....If we're talking a WINNING RaceCar, who cares if you can't drive it on the street.....I don't really know of any that you could without some massive back and neck problems from the 1/2 ton springs on it.

 

Also, can someone maybe chime in with how much it would be to get each car running with the appropriate motor. I have never priced out an H22 swap into an EG.
JDM B18C-R $4500 motor/trans???
JDM H22A $2000 motor/trans+Necessary install parts for EG
I am even including a REAL H22 trans in that number. You could go CHEAP and use an H23 trans for about $500 cheaper. Similar gear ratios, not as reliable with high revving though......I personally wouldn't do it....again that is Learned from my mistakes.

 

H23 transmission has nothing different internally from an H22 tranny other than ratios, which are pretty much the same as a 5th gen H22 tranny. Same with the F22 trannies, same selectors/syncros, so I wouldn't worry about it's high reving ability.. They even use the same parts as the B-series transmissions. (selectors/syncros)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by roma’s GSReg6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I had an h22 in my hatch and I swapped it out in favor of a gsr. Both have had lsd's and in my opinion the gsr is much better suited for the car. As far as handling I also lean towards the gsr heavily. Even if the weight difference is slight the car rarely understeers with the gsr and i a night and day differenc from the h22. Also from my experiences the b series tranny's are much better due to the rod linkage being much more percise. As far as maintenance it is now fairly simple to do a timing belt or clutch replacement.(with the h22 i always removed the entire engine for this). just my experiences and opinions b18c h22 </TD></TR></TABLE>

I can do a full timing belt swap on an h22 civic in about 30 minutes with the motor in the car. I never had to do a clutch replacement while the motor was in the car, but I did have to drop the transmission out of it a couple of times and it was simple as cake.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NirVTECn2o &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also, can someone maybe chime in with how much it would be to get each car running with the appropriate motor. I have never priced out an H22 swap into an EG.
JDM B18C-R $4500 motor/trans???
JDM H22A $2000 motor/trans+Necessary install parts for EG
I am even including a REAL H22 trans in that number. You could go CHEAP and use an H23 trans for about $500 cheaper. Similar gear ratios, not as reliable with high revving though......I personally wouldn't do it....again that is Learned from my mistakes.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've put together a h22/eg swap for ~$3,500. YOu can do it for more and probably a few hundred less. With the way the H2B swaps are available now and the posted times from people doing the swaps (4/10ths in a 12 second stock bottom end/no-port head) there is little reason to keep the h-series transmission. You can also keep stock b-series mounts and b-series axes w/ the h2b. There are some other tradoffs, but overall it's a great setup.

Although I'm starting to wonder if the 4.266 FD in the m2a4/m2f4/m2b4's are the only real detriment to the transmission.

Overall, there is no question that the h22 can and will make more power than a similarly prepped c5. The weight is negligible. The real trade off is the hassle of working on a tighter fitting motor (not a big factor in my opinion) vs. how much less $$ you'll spend to replace a blown h22 instead of a blown c5.

Personally I see no reason to stay with the c5.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda318dx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">H22 engine and tranny stock is around 40lbs more then stock B18c5
H1 race preped engine/tranny will only weigh around 20 lbs more


H22 = much cheaper
H22 trannies have the same selectors/syncros as a B series tranny.

230/170 on the dyno with mine, with nothing crazy done at all (stock head porting/not milled)

Sadly, no one will buy it.. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Jesus I wish I could afford something right now.