ok i've never had this happen. see if anyone can figure this out!!! been pondering on this for 2 days. car doesn't start... has fuel and spark...

96 Lude SI H23

Put new head on.... timing correct, valves adjusted to spec, all electricals seem to be ok...NO check engine, compression 200ish, got 8 gallons of fresh 93 octane gas(car stored for months), checked O2(unplugged it just to see), fuel pressure @ 35psi(fuel pump not cause/fuel system ok), injectors all checked out...we even changed them..yes they are low impedence, Firing order correct(same as H22), New plugs/wires/rotor... I've done all I can..

one weird thing is if you do a B-series firing order mean start off the 1@round off of distributor cap and do the 3-4-2 clockwise then the car will start, but sputter/bogg pretty bad @ partial throttle and very bad at WOT...

next step... go get
1) A distributor assembly from autozone(in the past a H22 distributor acted funny too so maybe we have another case here)
2) CRAZY...

any inputs welcome...anything helps at this point....

if i figure it out i'll post incase someone gets into this mess in the future

 

If you put the wires in the wrong order it fires?

Hm. Well, check the resistance of the wires
What kind of wires do you have anyway?

Make sure your battery is properly charged.

I'm assuming you have an external coil.....

How did u check for spark?
Did you get a spark tester, or just pull the spark plug out the engine?

Make sure you have a healthy blue spark. And take your time to check each cylinder because one could just not be firing.

Take off the distributor cap, and check for carbon tracking and check to see if its worn.

I'm sticking with ignition because if you have fuel and good compression - you should be fine.

Just try to make sure everything is good. Hopefully you'er not throwing any codes. Make sure all your sensors are plugged in.

Hope some of that helps.

It could be really simple - like the battery not having enough cranking amps.

Just get a volt meter and run it across the battery leads - should be 10 or more. Put a battery pack on the battery then try to start the car.

If you have an external coil - take the coil-to-distributor wire off, put a spark tester on it, ground it, and have someone crank the engine - it should have a bright blue spark.

Or, just test primary and secondary resistance on the coil. And test for short to ground on the coil.


If none of that works..........i guess try another computer?
Get some starting fluid and spray some in the cylinders.

I'm just throwing **** out my ***, and maybe something will click for you

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BEEYOND &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> car doesn't start... has fuel and spark...</TD></TR></TABLE>

if you have those two, then the only things it could be would be incorrect airflow, lack of compression, or incorrect timing.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BEEYOND &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

if i figure it out i'll post incase someone gets into this mess in the future </TD></TR></TABLE>

funny you said that because your title has nothing to do with the situation at hand.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TheKingPin &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you put the wires in the wrong order it fires?

Hm. Well, check the resistance of the wires
What kind of wires do you have anyway?

Make sure your battery is properly charged.

I'm assuming you have an external coil.....

How did u check for spark?
Did you get a spark tester, or just pull the spark plug out the engine?

Make sure you have a healthy blue spark. And take your time to check each cylinder because one could just not be firing.

Take off the distributor cap, and check for carbon tracking and check to see if its worn.

I'm sticking with ignition because if you have fuel and good compression - you should be fine.

Just try to make sure everything is good. Hopefully you'er not throwing any codes. Make sure all your sensors are plugged in.

Hope some of that helps.

It could be really simple - like the battery not having enough cranking amps.

Just get a volt meter and run it across the battery leads - should be 10 or more. Put a battery pack on the battery then try to start the car.

If you have an external coil - take the coil-to-distributor wire off, put a spark tester on it, ground it, and have someone crank the engine - it should have a bright blue spark.

Or, just test primary and secondary resistance on the coil. And test for short to ground on the coil.


If none of that works..........i guess try another computer?
Get some starting fluid and spray some in the cylinders.

I'm just throwing **** out my ***, and maybe something will click for you

</TD></TR></TABLE>


awesome reply bro....

spark is healthy
what i meant by doing a B-series firing order which is different then the h22/h23 is that it'll start fine, but bogg and run sluggish... this is what i don't understand. and doing a real h22/h23 firing order yields no response; car doesn't even start or act like it wants to start...

battery voltage is fine since i am using a charger set at 40amps..so plenty of juice.

new distributor cap and rotor...

i've already tried another good computer...h22---same results.. eventhough h23 the h22 can still run it... also tried a LS computer too.. same results... nothing!!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by The_Sober &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

if you have those two, then the only things it could be would be incorrect airflow, lack of compression, or incorrect timing.</TD></TR></TABLE>


yes yes i've live by those rules...hehe

all is good though...timing: white "T" on flywheel lined up and up/up on cam gear with side lines on cam gear straight as a ruler guys...... i'm thinking bad distributor.... i'll update

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fish stick &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

funny you said that because your title has nothing to do with the situation at hand.</TD></TR></TABLE>


dude.. do i have to be so specific as to relate all subject to the title.. just because i didn't post **** for you doesn't mean you can bash on this post...


now get to it and help figure this out...

 

3 most crucial things for an engine to run is compression, fuel, VERY crucial: timed spark(I know this by first hand experience. ). timed spark meaning correct firing order. I checked for spark(which I had a strong spark in every cyl). I know I accidentally had the wrong firing order and the car would crank but not turn over. after a few days of thinking, I rechecked the firing order only to see that it was wrong. changed it to the correct firing order and viola, started right up. few days later, doing a compression test and the coil went out.

just a long rant...lol


anyways, I say since you have good compression, fuel, spark, make sure you have the correct firing order. if you do have the correct firing order and have spark, the problem lies beyond the spark plug wires(if testing from there) ie: spark plugs(I've seen insulators cracked because of overtightening).

you're right on track, I say find a good new dizzy and see what happens. could be bad sensors inside the dizzy ie: CYP, CKP and TDC but then you "should" get a CEL.

also check the ignition timing for good measure. advance is towards the firewall and retard is towards the front of the car.

also make sure the dizzy is on correctly. I know it can go on only 1 way but I've seen people jam it in the wrong way to make it sit flush.

here's the firing order (ie: Helms manual) for h-series just incase.

(flat part)
2 1
4 3
(rounded part)

if you're running stock spark plug wires, the resistance shouldn't exceed 25k ohms.@ 68 degrees F.

update us on how it goes.

by the way, are you hmong??


*edit* didn't see the year of the car. whoops. 96 is obd2 which means the CKP sensor should be at the oil pump. you can check the sensor also to see if it's ok. I know on 4g63's it's a common problem from what my friend tells me. the car will crank but won't turn over.



Modified by Honda Sport at 6:48 PM 6/14/2006

 

Edit - this is OBDI
OBD2 is in the next post.

YES YES YES !!!!!

Great post.

I forgot to mention that, if your CKP is done, it won't start no matter what. Oooh, you should definately look at that.


Information taken from alldata

The TDC/CKP/CYP Sensor is mounted inside the distributor housing and is not serviced separately.

PURPOSE
The TDC/CKP/CYP Sensor is used to determine ignition timing at start-up, position of #1 cylinder for sequential fuel injection, normal timing for fuel injection and ignition of each cylinder and also detects engine RPM.

OPERATION
The unit is made up of three separate sensors mounted inside the distributor. The Top Dead Center (TDC) Sensor, the Crankshaft Position (CKP) Sensor, and the Cylinder Position (CYP) Sensor. All three sensors are pickup coil and reluctor construction. The Programmed Fuel Injection Electronic Control Module (PGM-FI ECM) uses these signals to determine fuel injector and ignition timing and to calculate engine RPM.


The TDC sensor signal is used to determine ignition timing at engine start-up. This signal is also used as a backup signal in the event the CYP sensor signal becomes abnormal.
The CYP sensor generates a signal based on the position of the number #1 cylinder for proper timing of the sequential fuel injection system for each cylinder.
The CKP sensor determines timing for fuel injection and ignition of each cylinder and also detects engine speed.

INSPECTION


Turn the Ignition off.
Disconnect the eight pin connector from the TDC/CKP/CYP Sensor.



Measure the resistance between the terminals indicated on the chart for the correct sensor. Resistance should measure between 350 and 700 ohms . If resistance is out of spec, replace Distributor Housing Assembly.
If resistance checks correct, measure for continuity between body ground and each terminal of the sensor being tested. If any continuity is measured, replace Distributor Housing Assembly.
If all tests good but symptom or DTC indication persists see troubleshooting procedure for DTC's 4/8/9.


Electrical Specs

Resitance
RESISTANCE

between terminals B and F 350 - 700 ohms

between terminals C and G 350 - 700 ohms

between terminals D and H 350 - 700 ohms


Man i really hope this helps.

Ooops.....damn, i did all this, then finally read the bottom of your post. Its OBD2....hahaha............i'll find the info

 

DESCRIPTION
The CKP Sensor determines timing for fuel injection and ignition of each cylinder and also detects engine speed. The TDC Sensor determines ignition timing at start-up (cranking) and when crank angle is abnormal.

Are you throwing a code? I don't want to go through all the trouble posting this stuff if you're not throwing a code. If the CKP is faulty, it should throw a code.


Location:

 

thx guys for the response...

the distributor was bad in addition to one very crucial mistake. whoever built this setup had intake mixed to the exhaust camshaft. so when we put back the head after milling it, we reused the camshafts in the same order.... if you don't look carefully they will apear indentical since both cams have distributor KNOTCH at the end of the cams(92-96 Prelude SIs). So whoever redid the head before us, must have had another head and mixed the cams. no wonder no one could figure this problem... this car was brought here from 2 other shops. now i feel radical in figuring this out. distributor was bad since it kept missing...changed to a new one and wwaaaLLLAAAA...... runs MINT!!!

again to all your responses...

took 2 days to figure out, but persistance pervailed...again!!!