It's an established fact that the GSR sucks for brakes. Can't beat physics, and you combine a 2700+ pound car (w/ the driver) and undersized brakes, well... Also, I have yet to duct (this will be remedied before next event).

That said, I have put 2 weekends on a brand new set of Panther Plus's that were properly installed and bedded. The first weekend was HPDE1-2 at Mid-Ohio. This weekend was HPDE3 at Beaver.

Mid-O was no sweat. Of course, for the first 3 sessions I was CLUELESS and slow. But even on Sunday when I was getting faster they still breezed through it. No fade, no excessive travel...

Beaver was entirely different.

After the third session Saturday they were feeling soft. Lots more pedal travel and force required.

Bled them on Sunday morning, which removed some gunk from the fronts. Didn't improve the pedal however. After 2 shortened sessions Sunday, I quit. On my drive home, it was clear that I'm making metal-to-metal contact via the wonderful grinding sound that emanates whenever I use the brakes. Ugh.

So - my question: Is this to be expected? Or am I the guilty party, a 1st degree n00bish brake slayer? Or a bit of both? Any experience is appreciated.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by allenp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
On my drive home, it was clear that I'm making metal-to-metal contact via the wonderful grinding sound that emanates whenever I use the brakes. Ugh.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Damn, I'm still on the first set I bought for my NX! I've got 7 track days on mine, and still have some pad left! That said, the Beav is hard on brakes.

 

Beaver is very hard on brakes and likely P+ wasn't quite up to the challenge.

That and you suck (j/k!)

Things that will help:
-Remove the splash shields (aka heat retainers) if you haven't already.
-Run some ducting.
-Try XP8s, which should hold up better to harder tracks.

The first 2 will go along way to solving your problem.

 

Oh, I know I suck, don't worry! I just hope not that bad.

Thanks for the feedback. I really like the P+, but I'm sure under those conditions it was just over its head.

The first 2 will probably be OK for 90% of the time (including occasional street), but I think I might invest in some XP8s for the more challenging tracks.

One other question Matt, in your opinion is AP Racing 551 fluid sufficient for my kaa?

 

Allen,

I loved the XP8's never need anything more on my CRX. Yea matt is right remove the Heat Retainers. I used to run ducting but it was kinda a pain in the ***. I have no need to now, since the type R conversion. I am running the Hawk HT10 now which I really like so far.

 

We had a bad experience with 551 a few years ago. AP600 is much better, but expensive and way overkill for you.

I'd try:

Motul RBF600
Valvoline Synpower stuff
Ford heavy duty

In all honesty, any of those fluids should be completely sufficient for a novice/intermediate at any track. Freshness is key.

 

Problems with 551? How big of a problem(s)? Big enough that I should throw away the 3 $15 bottles that I have and start over?

RE: XP8 - is this pad acceptable for OCCASIONAL (less than once per week) street use?

Paul - the 'Rex might not need ducting, but like you said you're in a 2100# car with ITR brakes. I need ducting.

 

BeaveRun is very hard on brakes. I expect to go through 1 set of pads everytime I'm there. Like Matt said, XP8 would be a good choice.

IMO, I'd change out the front pads at the track to something more aggessive, then back to a street pad for the trip home. Race pads tend to eat rotors, lack cold bite and wear quickly on the street.

 

i've found that the less amount of time you are on track the harder you are on brakes.

i've found that HARD HARD braking is the way to save your brakes, by not dragging them for an extra 25-50 ft.

get your braking done and get it done....if you have to get back on throttle alittle then back on the brakes then do that it will save your brakes.

as matt said....remove splash guards all the way around. couldn't figure out why drivers rear kept locking up (assumed the guys that built the car had removed them) and the drivers rear splash guard on. removed that and drivers side rear lockup ceased.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i've found that the less amount of time you are on track the harder you are on brakes.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Help me out Chad, I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean. Do you mean "n00bs are harder on brakes" or do you mean "the faster your lap times the harder you are on brakes" ?

I can honestly say that I don't waste time with braking. I brake as hard as the Azenis 615's can handle, impending lockup, car a bit squirrely. There's no shame in my braking foot, fo ' sho'.

But, if I had a better line and could carry more speed through the corner (T1, T10 at beaver for example) then I'd use less braking on the approach.

 

Check it out, Big Al's brake eater!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MaddMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We had a bad experience with 551 a few years ago. AP600 is much better, but expensive and way overkill for you.

I'd try:

Motul RBF600
Valvoline Synpower stuff
Ford heavy duty

In all honesty, any of those fluids should be completely sufficient for a novice/intermediate at any track. Freshness is key.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I wholeheartedly reccomend valvoline synpower - all i use in my HPDE car and it can take anything i throw at it.

it's also cheap and can be had at almost any auto parts store, or stores like meijer, wally world, kmart, etc, pretty much anywher ethat has an automotive department.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MaddMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
In all honesty, any of those fluids should be completely sufficient for a novice/intermediate at any track. Freshness is key.</TD></TR></TABLE>


How do you feel about ATE Super Blue?

 

The first time I drove Beaver, I ground past the pad material, and had worn a hole in the backing plate. Still stopped my wrx piggie great!
but i didnt realize it until the drive home, and ended up changing pads in the parking lot of Roy Rogers on the PA turnpike

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blair &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


How do you feel about ATE Super Blue?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Works well, I used it in my S2K

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by allenp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Help me out Chad, I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean. Do you mean "n00bs are harder on brakes" or do you mean "the faster your lap times the harder you are on brakes" ?

I can honestly say that I don't waste time with braking. I brake as hard as the Azenis 615's can handle, impending lockup, car a bit squirrely. There's no shame in my braking foot, fo ' sho'.

But, if I had a better line and could carry more speed through the corner (T1, T10 at beaver for example) then I'd use less braking on the approach.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Compress your braking zone, it will solve ALOT of the problems.

 

actually, its not the compression of the braking zones that decreases braking heat (same decelleration over a shorter time = higher temps actually) its braking less and carrying more speed.
Novices usually overbrake for corners

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Fuuma0083 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Compress your braking zone, it will solve ALOT of the problems.</TD></TR></TABLE>

As I see it there are 2 ways to compress your braking zone, given the same entry speed:

1) Brake harder
2) Enter the corner at a higher speed, thus allowing you to brake less

I already stated that I'm braking at max torque. If I braked harder (with the same tires) then ABS comes on.

The only way I could compress my braking zone, then, would be to carry more speed into the corner with a better line. Of course that's what I want to do, if possible.

In the case of BeaveRun, it's clear to me that while my driving could obviously improve, my braking system needs help (cooling, better pads, etc)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by allenp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
As I see it there are 2 ways to compress your braking zone, given the same entry speed:

1) Brake harder
2) Enter the corner at a higher speed, thus allowing you to brake less
</TD></TR></TABLE>

You could lighten the car

 

Just to toss my $0.02 out there...

The stock fluid, pads and rotors have held up great out at BeaveRun. Coming down the front stretch I use the slight incline to my advantage and brake late, using gravity to aid in slowing me down.

For the rest of that track it's all about how much corner speed you can carry. If you just need a tad less speed, scrub it off with your tyres.

You can look at it many different ways, but I think this track enables soo many different driving styles that some people's eat brakes worse than others.

 

call carbotech to discuss your requirements and take their advice. i know that Matt is here quite a bit and giving out comments and advice (thanks Matt) but a direct dialog is good too.

i am sold on these guys because they want to know the following:

what car?
what's it weigh?
what tires?
do you have ducting?
what is your style?
what type of track do you drive on?
what calipers?
what rotors?
what fluid?

imho, they see pads as part of the braking system. you can only make certain gains with pads if the rest of the system is neglected. imho, they are not there just to take your order and ring up the sale.

i was most impressed that they were interested in this type of detail and giving some advice.

i am actually experimenting with two compounds based on the two types of tires i am using. the toyos do not seem to take to braking as well as the kumhos.

i am sold on carbotech.

tom

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blair &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How do you feel about ATE Super Blue?</TD></TR></TABLE>
The only car I drove at Beaverun was my '96 Cobra. I ran with Super Blue fluid (fresh from a new can just a month before the event) and Hawk HP+ pads. Sunday was about 70 miles on the track in the rain, speeds to maybe 80. Monday was about 90 track miles in the sun, twice a lap to about 110. Three track sessions of 25 or so minutes each. The brakes were perfect. Including one really stupid off line mistake where I was in full antilock trying to make the double apex off the back straight. Then all I did was change tires to drive home.
While I know that car is different from the Honda, keep in mind that with me in the car, it's almost 3900 pounds so the big brakes become closer to "adequate" than "good."

Like has been said, finding a pad appropriate to the track is key. Now that you've learned what doesn't work, try the next step up. I personally am sold on Hawk but there are a lot of good brake manufacturers that make pads for the Honda. Once you find a pad that works for you with the right heat range for the track you're at, make sure you take the time to run fresh fluid all the way through.

Again, it can be your fluid of choice - just make sure it has both a good initial "dry" boiling temp and a reasonable "wet" boiling temp. Before changing to the Super Blue in the Cobra, I boiled the Ford HD fluid at Waterford Hills in MI. That was more because it was old than because of the fluid, but it happened. No pedal at the end of a straight is not a good feeling. That's where I learned my lesson!

Tim

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ScreaminTeg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The stock fluid, pads and rotors have held up great out at BeaveRun. Coming down the front stretch I use the slight incline to my advantage and brake late, using gravity to aid in slowing me down.

For the rest of that track it's all about how much corner speed you can carry. If you just need a tad less speed, scrub it off with your tyres.

You can look at it many different ways, but I think this track enables soo many different driving styles that some people's eat brakes worse than others.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Just a question - is your experience in an Integra? I see you have an S2K, clearly that car has a better braking system.

I know and fully acknowledge that I am a novice and my driving needs to improve. BUT - it seems that from several very experienced people here (includling Matt) that Panther+ pads simply aren't up to the task at Beaver.

Sure, the front straight braking zone is uphill - I could brake near the 100 marker and get down to speed for T1. But the backstraight is FAST and downhill - what do you do there? If you're coming in fast, you have to slow WAY down for T10. If you "scrub off speed with the tires" you have a crappy line for 10. I'd think the same for 1.

*shrug*

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tom91ita &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">call carbotech to discuss your requirements and take their advice. i know that Matt is here quite a bit and giving out comments and advice (thanks Matt) but a direct dialog is good too.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly why I have the P+ right now. Called Larry last fall and spoke with him. I think perhaps I overemphasized the need for streetability, as I rarely drive my car on the street anymore... XP8s here I come.

 

i went through two full sets of pads and two sets of front rotors with my S2000 last september at Beaver.... XP10's....