So I'm on the way to Smart & Final to pick up some oil absorbing kitty litter (to clean up two gallons of used oil all over my garage, but that's another story) and I see that the Air-Gas welding supply shop across the street is having some kind of sales event. There's a couple of hot rods, a big Lincoln truck, a Miller awning, sales guys in embroidered golf shirts, a smoking BBQ grill and a bunch of guys wandering around holding paper plates and eating hot dogs. So I'm thinking "free lunch" and I'll check out some welding **** I cannot afford...

Fast forward an hour, four hot dogs, two cokes, a visit to every sales display in the parking lot, and I've just learned something new: one of the sales reps has told me I can "theoretically" TIG weld with my MIG. No ****. That's what he said. "It's an old welder's trick."

In a nutshell, you get a .045" MIG tip and drill it out with a 1/16" drill. Pull all the wire out of the MIG, shove a tungsten electrode in the drilled out MIG tip and PRESTO: poor-mans TIG. The Mr. Welding-man also says I'll need some helium and to use DC - on the electrode. I ain't got no Helium, so I ask him if 100% argon will start a nuclear reaction or anything. "Don't know," he says. "Give it a try."

Well, the results are in and they are a little disappointing. DC - on argon creates crusty, lifeless craters in 1/8 aluminum with nothing that even resembles shiny puddle of aluminum that one could weld with. Any voltage great enough to hold an arc just wilts the aluminum into crap. (I DID clean the oxidation off the surface of the aluminum...)

I tried DC + and put so much heat in the MIG tip that it began to melt onto the electrode. I screwed with this some more because it did actually start to produce a shiny puddle, but within seconds the tungsten electrode tip turned into a big molten ball and the copper MIG tip followed close behind...

So, here are some questions for this gathering or experts:
• Does electrode tip shape have anything to do with my problems using DC - ?
• Is using argon instead of helium the cause of all my problems?
• Have any of you guys ever pulled this off with any degree of success?

I need a cheap way to weld aluminum. I am really hoping there is some way I can get the MIG set up right to do it. Thanks in advance.

Thawley -- trying to TIG aluminum with a Lincoln SP-175 Plus

 

You do know you can mig weld AL right?


I've never heard of anyone doing this but weirder things have been done....I think...

 

MIG machines are a voltage controlled machine, to control how much of the consumable electrode is actually consumed at once. in other words, has a slightly fluctuating current. TIG on the other hand is current controlled, with variants in the voltage, i.e. you pull the tungsten farther away from the workpiece (while welding) and voltage drops (more resistance) so the voltage raises to maintain the proper current flow. But, who knows how it may react. maybe the current fluctuations may be so consistent that it will act a a pulser.

Let us know!

Jimmy

 

ALSO, the reason why you AC alum is because the reversing polarity breaks away the alum. oxide whilst DC uses raw power to melt through it. alum melts @ approx. 1200*F, alum oxide @ approx. 3800*F

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by I4sillypwr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You do know you can mig weld AL right?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah. That's why I have the argon. It's just a pain in the *** to switch out the wire, liner and the rollers every time I have a small job.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DESTROYER &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ALSO, the reason why you AC alum is because the reversing polarity breaks away the alum. oxide whilst DC uses raw power to melt through it. alum melts @ approx. 1200*F, alum oxide @ approx. 3800*F</TD></TR></TABLE>
Is that still an issue if I clean the oxidation off the surface with an abrasive wheel? I tried prepping with both Scotch-brite and 120grit. Each was new and used on an air grinder, so elbow-grease was not an issue. The DC - tests DID behave like a surface oxidation problem. But I'm pretty convinced I ground it off.

 

yes, that sounds like it would work, HOWEVER, keep in mind that surface oxidation DOES form rather quickly (sub-seconds) so be fast, clean with a stainless wheel dedicated to aluminum, and weld only 1/2" at a time, then re-clean.

 

Interesting. I've considered converting mine to tig so I can switch between MS and SS easier and get into tighter areas my mig gun can't. I might just try the moded mig gun on MS just to see what happens.

 

first off AlO will come back seconds after you grind it off. you cannot get it all of. just most of it.

how are you switching your electrode from DCSP(electrode -) and DCRP(electrode +)?

Al cannot be welded with DCSP. dcrp is needed but not the best way without He.
ACHF is best for Al but thats not an option here.

try it out on steel and take some pics for us.
grind the tungsten to a point. and use electrode (-) (DCSP)

get some pics.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dfoxengr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how are you switching your electrode from DCSP(electrode -) and DCRP(electrode +)?</TD></TR></TABLE>
There are two terminal posts inside the welder marked + & - So I just switch the cables on them...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Al cannot be welded with DCSP. dcrp is needed but not the best way without He.
ACHF is best for Al but thats not an option here.</TD></TR></TABLE>
So argon is the problem? Also, what do DCSP & DCRP stand for?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">try it out on steel and take some pics for us.
grind the tungsten to a point. and use electrode (-) (DCSP)</TD></TR></TABLE>

Love to. Maybe not today, but I appreciate the help. I don't need the He for steel, right?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dfoxengr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
how are you switching your electrode from DCSP(electrode -) and DCRP(electrode +)?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

means dc straight and reverse polarity. straight being electrode (-)

 

ok....

I think people really really really need to research before they go into any kind of welding for one. Mig welding aluminum can be done, and requires a very expensive spool gun, and a machine that can support that feature. It must be welded in a pulse form of welding as well. If you do not know what that is, look it up. Mig and tig welding are two completely different things. Google pulse mig aluminum.

That welding rep sounds like a dumb ***, and pretty much told you to ruin your welder.

 

Hmmm... Since I already HAVE MIG welded aluminum without an expensive spool gun, you don't sound too full of great info either. I'll admit I know very little about welding, but at least I'm open minded enough to explore options in a less than perfect world. I'd love to buy an $1800+ TIG welder and have the best of both worlds. Since that is not an option, I'd like to learn all that is possible with what I DO have.

Photo below shows beads from my very first attempts MIG welding aluminum with a $50 liner kit on a Lincoln SP-175 Plus. Maybe not the best, but at least it shows there's more than one way do do things besides your way. Welcome to the real world.

 

He never said you couldn't mig weld AL without a spool gun. Of course it can be done. Doesn't mean it's the best way but I'd rather do that than try to turn my mig into a tig welder. Pulsed mig welding is far far superior on AL than non pulsed and everyone knows it.

People need to stop getting all butthurt in this forum.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jaydmcrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Mig welding aluminum can be done, and requires a very expensive spool gun, and a machine that can support that feature. </TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I quoted a qoute with no other text and got mad when someone wrote something in so it didnt look funny when he quoted it. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Go back and read everything Jaydmcrx wrote with this mind set "the best/proper way to do things"

In order of AL welding sweetness

#1 tig
#2 pulsed mig with either a spoolgun or push/pull
#3 mig
#4-X all other methods (for the most part)

There happy now?


Modified by I4sillypwr at 1:20 PM 4/19/2006

 

It does not REQUIRE a spool gun, as long as the cablehose is short enough. Using a push/pull gun setup is typically more economical as you can use a larger spool of wire inside the machine as opposed to a 1lb spool on the spool gun. Spool guns feed aluminum the best, but are not REQUIRED. You also can weld aluminum with a pulse gmaw machine such as the millermatic 350p, or using a standard gmaw machine using argon and spraying.

 

The intent of this thread is rapidly fading. I never asked what the best way to weld aluminum is. The intent of the thread is to get info on how to use my MIG with a tungsten electrode to weld aluminum. What I'm looking for is info that will help me do it.

What I don't need is pompous, discouraging crap from people who have never tried it. If you can help, great. Love to have your help. If you're only here to shoot down my attempts to do what I've been told has already been done, please keep your discouragement to yourself.

Thanks.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by I4sillypwr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Go back and read everything Jaydmcrx wrote with this mind set "the best/proper way to do things"

</TD></TR></TABLE>

well what he wrote, was that is the ONLY way to do it. It is not easy to "read mindsets" on the internet.

 

If you want to do it a half ***'ed way that will produce shitty welds like you just showed us fine go right ahead. It's not my **** your welding together.

I guess i'm just used to using machines that are meant to weld aluminum. But in the "real world" your welds would fail. Just laying metal on top of some metal is not welding. And that "it works" or "it's good enough" attitude is what get's people killed, or ruins expensive stuff. If you want to do it that way then go right ahead. I have seen welders such as what you have shown me, and i was telling you how to do it the right way. Not what can get you by.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well what he wrote, was that is the ONLY way to do it. It is not easy to "read mindsets" on the internet.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Where i come from and what i've been taught is the right way is the only way.

I'm not turning this into a whole dramatic thing. Go at it and prove me wrong. That is how people learn, and can do better in the long run.

 

A big problem is that GTAW machines are constant current, and GMAW is constant voltage...so there might be a problem.

 

amps vary with arc length on migs

 

And wirefeed speed.

 

Wich is why a lot of company's are coming out with new power source technologies to compensate for problems such as these. If you are trying to spray transfer, and find your self in short circuit it is only a matter of wire feed, stick out, and having your machine setup right.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So, here are some questions for this gathering or experts:
• Does electrode tip shape have anything to do with my problems using DC - ?
• Is using argon instead of helium the cause of all my problems?
• Have any of you guys ever pulled this off with any degree of success?

I need a cheap way to weld aluminum. I am really hoping there is some way I can get the MIG set up right to do it. Thanks in advance.

Thawley -- trying to TIG aluminum with a Lincoln SP-175 Plus</TD></TR></TABLE>

welding Al with DCEN creates black sooty ash and ugly cratered welds - the ash is MgO - burning it changes the alloy composition if you don't add filler. DCEP creates white Al2O3 and ***** the tip which makes it tougher to focus the arc - electricity loves sharp, pointy electrodes. TIG machines with adjustable balance change the ratio of DCEP to DCEN - higher DCEP is generally nicer but impractical in many situations that require precise arc control (like T-joints) - the solution is high frequency, which allows lots of DCEP without letting the tungsten ball up. Green tungsten ***** quicker than red, but red ***** up in a minute anyway - which means you need more of a heat sink (i.e. bigger tungsten)

I have never done it but I would try DCEP with a 1/8" red tungsten (or bigger or better doped for high balance use if possible) and not be too let down if it doesn't work great. As for cheap, your MIG kit is it - the next practical step up is the TA185 - the problem with what you're trying to do is that straight DCEP or DCEN sucks for Al - so for Al practical welding options it's either a $6-700 MIG + $50 liner kit or a $2000 MIG + $500 spool gun or $1700 TIG

give the bigger electrode a shot though and post pics - it'll be interesting to see just how well it can do

ps - don't bother cleaning aluminum oxide off, it's a waste of time and can actually make it worse