Watching the HotRod class this weekend brought back some memories of the class before the GM cars came in. I know there are atleast 20 other old schoolers that think the same. Listen guys, we need to dust off the cars and come back into the game. Some of these cars are still running but just at their local track. AND, most of these cars have what it takes to run mid 8's they just need a little "correct" direction to get going on track. What we saw this past weekend in Moroso is what needs to stay to bring up the fan/car count for this class and sport. This class is what made "Import Racing" what it is today. This topic has been brought up before with controversy and ending with the same ending...no one can keep up with a GM car with a Honda. This is very true. With a killer RD budget GM was able to accelerate their program way faster then the racers that are doing it on their own. Justifing buying a turnkey GM car is not the answer. In the beginning it was the pride behind building, designing, and working on the car to make it go faster. I believe alot of people got to the point where they thought throwing more and more money at the car was going to make it faster. I have news, A lightweight T4 car with bars would run the mid 8 numbers to stay in the class guys. (this is due to everyone in this class having pride in what they are building)This topic has 2 goals in mind one to assure racers with HotRod cars that they are fully capable of running these numbers on a weekly basis w/o rebuilding a motor/trans combo. And also to inform the public that once again "from outside sources" that a well funded team is deciding to come beat up on the privateer class once again! Take a look at where some of the old schoolers with these turnkey cars are...PRO FWD. They need to stay there "." These guys agreed that beating up on a class that they know they can win in is not necc. There are plenty of PRO FWD cars to have fun with now. Go play with them! Apparently no matter what turbo physical size limitations there are you can have a custom wheel made to make the airflow...im not a turbo engineer but the wheels can be made...This team does have the capability/funds to make 1300whp on a 66mm turbo folks...but instead of going to PROFWD and getting their ***'s handed to them because they know they dont have the ability or the knowledge over Gardella, Ladwig,CSI, or Jimenez(sp) is stupid! This sport was built on Privateers, take a look around.

This type of mentality has taken some of the sports most exciting racers out of the game for years to RD some crazy cars. Brent L, Levon E , JJ, Laskey , Glazar, Lyle Henry and many others..."one of these guys just lost total control of their program and are doing dumb **** too" he knows who he is too, hell a street car has gone faster then his ****! jokes aside....

This class is not ment for big sponsors...the smartest thing they could do is take the budget they are planning to use and split it it up on a min of 10 cars. It would help there business more. Put their name in the winners circle more often with a different car every weekend...Oh! and maybe possiblily sell more product to the people who got them rich in this sport to begin with! Im sure they have an 80-100K budget for the year that will put a badass driveline combo in atleast 10 Hondas/Toyotas/Mazdas/Subarus/Mazdas/GMs......Privateer teams that is....


Long Story Short.....Lets see more of these HotRod cars come out!

Seeing that Garret is still unsure about what class they are going to run, accordingly to their press release on NHRA.com....I dont think your team wants to be known for killing the HotRod class once again so you can prove a point!


Howard




Modified by AR Fab at 12:38 PM 4/5/2006

 

I'm not really sure what you're talking about, kinda sounds like you want to say alot, but can't. lol Anyways, JJ's car will be back on the track soon enough, and better than ever!

 

although you are a bit tough to follow there howard, But since I know you, I know what you mean.....

I agree, and this class actually allows me to consider bringing my car out to some of the events this season. whereas I wouldnt have considered it over the last few years... I mean I dont want to win, but I do want to run a few rounds if you know what I mean.

Yoni

 

im only 22 and that just made me nostalgic for the good ol days....i used to love following the hotrod class when i was like 15-16 , still do but it got boring watching ron and gary trade winners and runner up everyevent

 

I remember the days of Quick 16! That was good times. It was fresh, new, and everyone had a shot. Jojo and Veit, Fuchs and Bergenholtz were like the GM's of that class back then. They had the best looking, most funded, and fastest cars around!

The only thing we can expect to stay consistent is change! I think that as we go through the next couple of years, more and more order will be instilled into the classes that we run in, but that all takes time; time from the sanctioning bodies, and time for the competitors to all catch up to eachother, assuming that they can All jokes aside, I think that the GM cars going ProFWD is a great thing, but I also think that the HotRod class may have lost much of it's appeal also. Sure, it may be more evened out now, but what controversy will there be? What will all these people have to bitch about? Don't worry, they will find something, they always do! I am glad for Eggum and Tran. They both now have a very good handle on what the year will look like, but remember this also, the GM boys can very easily put on a few pounds, some smaller turbo's, and come back in with their guns blazing!

To add, Kenny's new car will be a threat as well. A Scion backed by Scion, sounds familiar doesn't it? A GM backed by GM, whatever it is, it will seem unfair. I think Stephanie puts things back into perspective for everyone. A 3 person crew, making it happen all weekend consistently!!! I give that MAJOR props. Jeromie and Jim are the muscle behind it all, and Stephanie is the finess! To me, that shows that ANYONE can do this, if you know how! They don't know black magic, after all! Although at times, I think they might hehe.

Put shortly, the HotRod class will look much different this year, different until someone else comes out with some funding and a well thought out vehicle with a dedicated crew. The fact that people are interested in that class is inevitable, and that is why it is appealing to sponsors! A " semi " grass roots class that has grown MANY pro teams! That is what this racing is for. To cutivate a new group of racers, and a new breed of fan! This FWD racing was built on progress. How much fun would it have been if no-one had the resources to get past the 10 second barrier?!?!?

 

Good post Howard. There are a lot of HotRod cars that should come out. The GMs are now in the correct class so maybe people will come out. If someone started with a clean slate Honda chassis with a Honda engine built to the level the Ecotec is and a good trans I think it would raise some GM eyebrows. Our Honda engines ain't even in the ballpark with the shelf crap most people use.

Anyone thought of trying to lease a car that is just collecting dust. That sure beats spending $80K+ to build a car.

What was the last statement all about? Stay in ProFWD?

 

JJ will be out soon tonys close....

i've got my ole crx that could get dusted off and Chad Doerrs ole rex is getting recaged
and should be out this year

 

So here is a question for you guys?

If everyone wants the HOTROD/PRO 4 classes back to the grass level roots, should these cars in both classes be allowed 28" slicks and methanol?

I believe when these types of cars all started being built back in the day, these current set ups had never even been thought of.

So is it a deal where everyone wants to see the faster GM cars stay out of the class, or everyone truly wants a grass roots class?

There is a huge difference in the two. I mean Kenny has been 8.1x,Mike C. has been 8.2x, Chuck and others have been 8.3x. So where does this put the guy that wants to run but can't compete with the teens/twenties/thirties?

What if someone where to lease Gary G. old car and motors and trannies?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mazda 3 Racer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Put shortly, the HotRod class will look much different this year, different until someone else comes out with some funding and a well thought out vehicle with a dedicated crew. The fact that people are interested in that class is inevitable, and that is why it is appealing to sponsors! A " semi " grass roots class that has grown MANY pro teams! That is what this racing is for. To cutivate a new group of racers, and a new breed of fan! This FWD racing was built on progress. How much fun would it have been if no-one had the resources to get past the 10 second barrier?!?!?</TD></TR></TABLE>


Im sorry guys...Im may have crossed what I was saying in the first post...but If you were standing in my shop you would have undersood it lillte better...

But as Vince posted...in the quote above...
THIS CLASS CULTIVATES MANY PRO TEAMS!

CULTIVATES

It should be classified as a SEMI PRO class...when you get the sponsorship you move up...not down to beat up on the small guys work 3-6 F...N years to build a car!

Kennys doin the right thing with the Honda....but with a major sponsorship he should(i know alot of people are throwing **** at me right now) move up to a PROFWD class...go play in the territory and with people you started with...doing this is not allowing the classes to grow right...we have beat this dam horse for the last 2 years guys....


BTW...Im a mathetician with an Engineering Degree...in no way can a spell or group words together on paper properly sometimes...but the rest of this thread will get my point across...


Dammit Glenn! thats all I have to say... j/k

Howard

 

What I was crying about 2 years ago proved to be exactly right. GM's million dollar budget drove all the little guys away. I hope they will be back with GM in ProFWD this year. We are still progressing on our new car. The problem is to be competitive with GM, it takes a lot more $ and research...so progress has been slower than desired. I'm sure JJ and others find themselves in the same situation. If you are an independent, $$ is always an issue...not to mention the cost of gas has doubled in the last few years...makes you think twice about those races on the other coast.

 

howard, your post is a little narrow minded. money is money and sponsors should be able to spend it anywhere they want. should kenny have to return quaker state's or scion's money just because he runs in h/r? anyone who campaigns in h/r still incurs all the cost of travelling and race and maintenance expenses, if they can find a sponsor to offset the costs then good for them. they shouldn't be seen as the bad guy because it seems like they're beating up on the little guy. every racer out there wants to completely obliterate the competition, so we shouldn't point a finger at garrett or gm and say that they're killing the sport for doing something essentially that we all would do.

if we want to fix h/r and keep it strictly for the privateer then we need to fix it from the ground up starting with the rules. reduce slick sizes, ban methanol, reduce turbo sizes, prohibit back halves. this'll make them more reliable and cheaper to both build and maintain. and if someone still builds a car to these new specs and kills everyone then congrats to them, there's no shame in that.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by poorguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
if we want to fix h/r and keep it strictly for the privateer then we need to fix it from the ground up starting with the rules. reduce slick sizes, ban methanol, reduce turbo sizes, prohibit back halves. this'll make them more reliable and cheaper to both build and maintain. and if someone still builds a car to these new specs and kills everyone then congrats to them, there's no shame in that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Turbo size reduction and different tires do not change the $$ factor...Methanol makes fuel prices cheaper and it allows the engines to run longer and more reliable...back halving helps the car stay lightweight to reduce breakage....

PROFWD is were you need to push the envolope, develop new technology and spend serious money....

After thinking about it...using Kenny as an example was wrong...but if TRD was to open up there wind tunnels(if they had any) the engine development program departments and driveline departments to help a team to devolope a 7 tenth lead in the feild it should not be done in the HotRod class...Thats all

Howard

 

you gotta pay your dues is what this sport is all about. everyone says its because they cant get sponsors this and that, thats not how a racing program works. All of the guys that are out there racing today with sponsors have put their own money into this from the start and pays off a season or 2 later and even more.

like poorguy said, if H/R was strictly privateers, then there should be some crazy restrictions to make the class cheaper and competitive for the avg guy(and avg guy still would need $15+K to get a HR car going, and thats that even competitive yet in todays standards). thats just to get it rolling.

SFWD cars are getting into the $20+K to get competitive.
H/R even more.

If there is restructuring in H/R, there should be as well in SFWD, Pro-AM, T4, Comp 4, and all motor. Only class that should be pretty lax in rules are Pro-FWD and Pro RWD.
Thats the only way its gonna make an impact.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by poorguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> and if someone still builds a car to these new specs and kills everyone then congrats to them, there's no shame in that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

problem is! if a privateer does that and dominates all the others will cry again to have him out of the competition I think most people should put more energy to work on there car and less at whining

 

Kenny can not go in the PRFWD class because scion already has RADO in that class and it would not benefit there marketing ideas. would mention more but that is between Kenny and his sponsor

 

I think it is also misleading, because many privateer's have much more money than major sponsored teams. just because it doesn't say GM doesn't mean that they don't have the financial resources to compete. limitations create equal feilds.Hot Rod is getting better but trannies seperate the pack.


Modified by GOLDMEMBER at 9:29 PM 4/5/2006

 

Cookie, with all due respect, it is much more than trannys. Things like 20K wind tunnel charges, custom made valve seats, thousands of hours of dyno time, one day turnaround on broken blocks or trannys, on and on.

 

garys car was not wind tunnel tested, the valve seat setup was borrowed technology, those motors were not dynoed as much as you think, and all of us can have access to a engine dyno, the domestic guys have for years. Jim Justice has turned our motors around in 1 day if there are parts on the shelf for him.all is obtainable. Most of the above takes more proper planning and execution than big budget....A lot of people that complain about what others are doing, are not out there trying every weekend themselves to improve what they currently have. The above state ments were not directed at anybody in particular so please dont flame me up...

 

with all due respect to everyone in this thread... why is GM even being mentioned????... GM is in profront and that class looks healthy now(which is a good thing)
Hot Rod had 4 cars that could have taken the crown last weekend(whens the last time you could have said that????)... hopefully more people will come out now that they know GM is gone... we are now building a hot rod car to compete now that GM is in profront... when scion comes in, then good... the more money in sport compact racing the better... and the more money available to the hot rod class the better

I'm really perplexed by all of this????

Looks like profront may almost have a full field in VA... lets see some more hot rod cars there too

good luck to everybody... and in case you forgot... mid 8's are now ultra-competitive in hot rod... you dont have to worry about going 7.7's

 

That is the problem I am seeing. Everybody knows that GM is out of Hotrod/Pro 4, but only 6 show up to run in Phoenix, and 4 show up in Florida.

Why is this?

With 2 sets of rules for these racers to fall under, why are there not more cars trying to run?

 

Money I suppose. Keep in mind this was the first race. Maybe when the races get back east more people will come out. It isn't going to happen overnight. Just leave things be for awhile.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by littlebluecrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Jim Justice has turned our motors around in 1 day if there are parts on the shelf for him.all is obtainable. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Haha, you have had to do this too!!! IN 2003, NHRA Pomona finals, we had a block crack, literally, in HALF! That saturday night we went to my shop, got a bone stock block and head, and completed a new motor for the following days race! Sure, we were lucky we were in our hometown, but still. We are not, by far, a well funded team, but we too can make it happen when needed. I remember taking 2 blown up motors, and in 2 hours between rounds, our crew rebuilt a motor and went out to run low 8's to take 2nd place!

I don't think that most people realize how mush of a thrash some teams endure just to get the car down the track! But that drive doesn't come with $, it comes with dedication! Sorry, just thought I'd share.PS, I want to build a HotRod car.....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AR Fab &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Turbo size reduction and different tires do not change the $$ factor...Methanol makes fuel prices cheaper and it allows the engines to run longer and more reliable...back halving helps the car stay lightweight to reduce breakage....

PROFWD is were you need to push the envolope, develop new technology and spend serious money....

</TD></TR></TABLE>

yes they do. making more power and getting more traction will always cause more engine and driveline breakage pure and simple. it saves a lot of money on parts and maintenance when you restrict power and traction. by your argument since back halving helps keep the car light and reduce breakage, guess what a full tube frame would lighten the car and reduce breakage even more. this is the exact opposite of what everyone wants. when you backhalf an h/r car it simply becomes to close to a profwd car, in fact if you equalize the tire size, the cars would 60' similar times. a h/r car and pfwd car are just too similar, that's why marty can just add a few bars to his h/r sunfire and run it in pfwd. and that's why lummus and gardella were able to consistently outrun almost everyone in pfwd expect for marty and nelson.

the problem in the class is not money it's rules. the sanctioning bodies need to decide what they want the class to be and create fair rules for that class. if they want to allow more privateers into the class then they need to tighten up the rules. the class can still keep dry sumps and aftermarket trannies for the sake of reliability. but if they want a clear separtion between pfwd and h/r then they need to cut back on power and traction and keep the unibody structure.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fieldafm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">with all due respect to everyone in this thread... why is GM even being mentioned????... GM is in profront and that class looks healthy now(which is a good thing)

good luck to everybody... and in case you forgot... mid 8's are now ultra-competitive in hot rod... you dont have to worry about going 7.7's </TD></TR></TABLE>

The point Howard was making in the first post was that Garrett/Bothwell had a press release on NHRA.com saying they were still undecided as to whether they're running Hot Rod or not.
You're right mid 8's will now make Hot Rod ultra competitive, unless Lummus comes back and then it's back to last year.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fieldafm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">with all due respect to everyone in this thread... why is GM even being mentioned????... </TD></TR></TABLE>The reason GM is mentioned is because the subject of this thread is about where are all the hot rod cars. GM drove most of them away. Just because they decided they did not like the turbo limitations and jumped to a class that had less restrictions, does not mean that all the Honda Hot Rod cars are out there ready to make their big return.

To Vince, Jason, etc...you are missing the point. Most all hardcore racers (including ourselves) have produced an engine overnight to make a race. THAT IS NOT THE POINT. The point is that day in and day out, if you break a part, a new one shows up magically the next day. The new part is better than the old part that is broke. Cost is never the object.
Jason, you being at the seminar at Rousch should remember that the EcoTec was developed on the dyno by breaking every part available and replacing them with stronger parts until they made their desired horsepower. It does not matter if Gary's car was in the tunnel or not because all GM racers benefited from the Colbalts and Cavilers that were in the tunnel.