K20 swap arguement. Somebody set me straight:
My friend's and I are having a bit of a debate on a local forum. I've a friend willing to sell me the K20 swap from his EP for $2300 and I'm figuring the following extras:
$600 or so for Hasports mounts.
$400 for Axles
$35 for the fan switch
Also need to pick up a K series fuel rail and 1 to 1 Fuel pressure regulator.
$350 for a header to work with the swap.
$350 for a wiring harness
$200 or so for fuel lines, and other sorts of parts
$200 for shift linkage/shift box
and $$$ for a radiator
Since this is all only and estimate, I'm assuming around $4500 before any sort of labor and before Kpro which some have said I need and some have said otherwise.
Here's a link to page 3 of the original thread (Where actual swap discussion comes into play:
http://evillecars.com/vbulleti...age=3
Is there a hidden expense I'm missing? I've heard $6k from everone and I'm only seeing about $4500 before labor.
What am I missing?
$600 or so for Hasports mounts.
$400 for Axles
$35 for the fan switch
Also need to pick up a K series fuel rail and 1 to 1 Fuel pressure regulator.
$350 for a header to work with the swap.
$350 for a wiring harness
$200 or so for fuel lines, and other sorts of parts
$200 for shift linkage/shift box
and $$$ for a radiator
Since this is all only and estimate, I'm assuming around $4500 before any sort of labor and before Kpro which some have said I need and some have said otherwise.
Here's a link to page 3 of the original thread (Where actual swap discussion comes into play:
http://evillecars.com/vbulleti...age=3
Is there a hidden expense I'm missing? I've heard $6k from everone and I'm only seeing about $4500 before labor.
What am I missing?
k20a3 has potential, but there just isnt enough aftermarket support to even bother with it at this current moment. Plus 2300 is waaay to much. You could peice together your own k24 set-up or k20a2 for that much.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by pogeeboy27 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I agree. Don't waste your time with the K20A3. $2300 is also way too much for that motor. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I've seen these for half of that.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Heath »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is there a hidden expense I'm missing? I've heard $6k from everone and I'm only seeing about $4500 before labor.
What am I missing?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The quote for $6k is for a K20A2, not the A3. The A3 is barely considered Vtec. Not worth the trouble. Get an A, A2, or Z.
I've seen these for half of that.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Heath »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is there a hidden expense I'm missing? I've heard $6k from everone and I'm only seeing about $4500 before labor.
What am I missing?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The quote for $6k is for a K20A2, not the A3. The A3 is barely considered Vtec. Not worth the trouble. Get an A, A2, or Z.
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I have seen various people selling k20a3 swaps for $1400 even lower..
I would not recommend putting the a3 in there permanently unless you are planning to upgrade the motor soon.. once the car is K ready, it would not take more than 3 hours to swap another motor in there. I did it on my own in less tha 90 minutes
I would not recommend putting the a3 in there permanently unless you are planning to upgrade the motor soon.. once the car is K ready, it would not take more than 3 hours to swap another motor in there. I did it on my own in less tha 90 minutes
See, that's kinda what I was getting it. I can grab this locally, which is a big plus for me, get it swapped by local friends that own K series swaps themselves and then upgrade down the road.
As far as the "permanent motor" comment above: What the hell is really permanent anyway? Can't just leave **** alone, ya know.
As far as the "permanent motor" comment above: What the hell is really permanent anyway? Can't just leave **** alone, ya know.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NAallTheWAY »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The quote for $6k is for a K20A2, not the A3. The A3 is barely considered Vtec. Not worth the trouble. Get an A, A2, or Z.</TD></TR></TABLE>
can you please explain alittle more.
wouls you compare a k20a2 as being a gsr and a a3 as being a ls? (just to help us non K guys understand it )
im in a similar situation, but dont want to dive in before i know what im getting into.
can you please explain alittle more.
wouls you compare a k20a2 as being a gsr and a a3 as being a ls? (just to help us non K guys understand it )
im in a similar situation, but dont want to dive in before i know what im getting into.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by llewsirc »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">can you please explain alittle more.
wouls you compare a k20a2 as being a gsr and a a3 as being a ls? (just to help us non K guys understand it )
im in a similar situation, but dont want to dive in before i know what im getting into.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Please do.
wouls you compare a k20a2 as being a gsr and a a3 as being a ls? (just to help us non K guys understand it )
im in a similar situation, but dont want to dive in before i know what im getting into.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Please do.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by llewsirc »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
can you please explain alittle more.
wouls you compare a k20a2 as being a gsr and a a3 as being a ls? (just to help us non K guys understand it )
im in a similar situation, but dont want to dive in before i know what im getting into.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
exactlly thats the best way of putting it but its just to a higher level.
can you please explain alittle more.
wouls you compare a k20a2 as being a gsr and a a3 as being a ls? (just to help us non K guys understand it )
im in a similar situation, but dont want to dive in before i know what im getting into.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
exactlly thats the best way of putting it but its just to a higher level.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NAallTheWAY »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The quote for $6k is for a K20A2, not the A3. The A3 is barely considered Vtec. Not worth the trouble. Get an A, A2, or Z.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by llewsirc »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
can you please explain alittle more.
wouls you compare a k20a2 as being a gsr and a a3 as being a ls? (just to help us non K guys understand it )
im in a similar situation, but dont want to dive in before i know what im getting into.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
K20a3(and all K24's other than the TSX)
This motor does not have 3 cams per lobe like the GSR and other Vtec B-series. It only utilizes 2 lobes per cam.
Intake Cam:
Until the Vtec threshold is reached, these K engines essentially only use one intake valve per cylinder. The other is opened just a crack, enough to keep fuel from pooling behind the valve. This results in excellent swirl inside the combustion chamber and very efficient combustion. When Vtec is reached both valves are opened(one more than other) continuing the swirl.
Exhaust Cam:
The exhaust cam also has only two cam lobes. The exhaust side does NOT have any sort of Vtec. It has one lobe per valve, and opens each independently.
Not the Vtec you are used to.
Easier to say than to type. Basically, these motors are built for fuel efficiency and economy. They have a lousy head design for performance, and the block isnt as strong as the K20a2 or K20a.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by llewsirc »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
can you please explain alittle more.
wouls you compare a k20a2 as being a gsr and a a3 as being a ls? (just to help us non K guys understand it )
im in a similar situation, but dont want to dive in before i know what im getting into.
</TD></TR></TABLE>K20a3(and all K24's other than the TSX)
This motor does not have 3 cams per lobe like the GSR and other Vtec B-series. It only utilizes 2 lobes per cam.
Intake Cam:
Until the Vtec threshold is reached, these K engines essentially only use one intake valve per cylinder. The other is opened just a crack, enough to keep fuel from pooling behind the valve. This results in excellent swirl inside the combustion chamber and very efficient combustion. When Vtec is reached both valves are opened(one more than other) continuing the swirl.
Exhaust Cam:
The exhaust cam also has only two cam lobes. The exhaust side does NOT have any sort of Vtec. It has one lobe per valve, and opens each independently.
Not the Vtec you are used to.
Easier to say than to type. Basically, these motors are built for fuel efficiency and economy. They have a lousy head design for performance, and the block isnt as strong as the K20a2 or K20a.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NAallTheWAY »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">K20a3(and all K24's other than the TSX)
This motor does not have 3 cams per lobe like the GSR and other Vtec B-series. It only utilizes 2 lobes per cam.
Intake Cam:
Until the Vtec threshold is reached, these K engines essentially only use one intake valve per cylinder. The other is opened just a crack, enough to keep fuel from pooling behind the valve. This results in excellent swirl inside the combustion chamber and very efficient combustion. When Vtec is reached both valves are opened(one more than other) continuing the swirl.
Exhaust Cam:
The exhaust cam also has only two cam lobes. The exhaust side does NOT have any sort of Vtec. It has one lobe per valve, and opens each independently.
Not the Vtec you are used to.
Easier to say than to type. Basically, these motors are built for fuel efficiency and economy. They have a lousy head design for performance, and the block isnt as strong as the K20a2 or K20a.</TD></TR></TABLE>
great explanation
so basically they are the "ls" of k series ?
would a good set of cams help out on the intake side maybe?
you also said the block isnt as strong, i was under the impression that the short block was the same for all k20's/k24's (with only the C/R , head and IM being differnt)
i mainly ask because if you could get a k20a3 or any k24 (except the tsx) at a good price, would it be worth it?
i just keep comparing it to a ls swap instead of a gsr?
people have made great power on a ls, but the huge power is made on the b18cx motors (or with a vtec head)
or am i just thinkin to far unto it?
This motor does not have 3 cams per lobe like the GSR and other Vtec B-series. It only utilizes 2 lobes per cam.
Intake Cam:
Until the Vtec threshold is reached, these K engines essentially only use one intake valve per cylinder. The other is opened just a crack, enough to keep fuel from pooling behind the valve. This results in excellent swirl inside the combustion chamber and very efficient combustion. When Vtec is reached both valves are opened(one more than other) continuing the swirl.
Exhaust Cam:
The exhaust cam also has only two cam lobes. The exhaust side does NOT have any sort of Vtec. It has one lobe per valve, and opens each independently.
Not the Vtec you are used to.
Easier to say than to type. Basically, these motors are built for fuel efficiency and economy. They have a lousy head design for performance, and the block isnt as strong as the K20a2 or K20a.</TD></TR></TABLE>
great explanation
so basically they are the "ls" of k series ?
would a good set of cams help out on the intake side maybe?
you also said the block isnt as strong, i was under the impression that the short block was the same for all k20's/k24's (with only the C/R , head and IM being differnt)
i mainly ask because if you could get a k20a3 or any k24 (except the tsx) at a good price, would it be worth it?
i just keep comparing it to a ls swap instead of a gsr?
people have made great power on a ls, but the huge power is made on the b18cx motors (or with a vtec head)
or am i just thinkin to far unto it?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kelly. »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">great explanation
so basically they are the "ls" of k series ?
would a good set of cams help out on the intake side maybe?
you also said the block isnt as strong, i was under the impression that the short block was the same for all k20's/k24's (with only the C/R , head and IM being differnt)
i mainly ask because if you could get a k20a3 or any k24 (except the tsx) at a good price, would it be worth it?
i just keep comparing it to a ls swap instead of a gsr?
people have made great power on a ls, but the huge power is made on the b18cx motors (or with a vtec head)
or am i just thinkin to far unto it?</TD></TR></TABLE>
for an answer
so basically they are the "ls" of k series ?
would a good set of cams help out on the intake side maybe?
you also said the block isnt as strong, i was under the impression that the short block was the same for all k20's/k24's (with only the C/R , head and IM being differnt)
i mainly ask because if you could get a k20a3 or any k24 (except the tsx) at a good price, would it be worth it?
i just keep comparing it to a ls swap instead of a gsr?
people have made great power on a ls, but the huge power is made on the b18cx motors (or with a vtec head)
or am i just thinkin to far unto it?</TD></TR></TABLE>
for an answer
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kelly. »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so basically they are the "ls" of k series ?
would a good set of cams help out on the intake side maybe?</TD></TR></TABLE>
In a sense it is the ls of the k-series. I may be wrong, but I dont think you can just throw cams in there. The exhaust cam operates differently, not like Vtec at all. In order to make it true Vtec I think you have to do rockers and stuff like that. Not worth it.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kelly. »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you also said the block isnt as strong, i was under the impression that the short block was the same for all k20's/k24's (with only the C/R , head and IM being differnt)
i mainly ask because if you could get a k20a3 or any k24 (except the tsx) at a good price, would it be worth it?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I am positive that the block for the A3 is not as strong as the A2. The A2 is built for higher rpms so it has stronger rods and a better crank, etc. The A3 wasnt designed for more than 7000rpms.
If you dont want to spend money on a K20A2 or K24A2(TSX) then I would recommend a K24 over the K20A3. That way you get some torque and you still have the 7000 rpms. Plus they are very low compression from the factory so they are good for boost. Not to mention they're great on gas mileage.
As far as the A3 being worth it. If you plan on upgrading to the A2 or A later down the road then I would say yes, it is worth it. If you will never uprage and just keep the A3, I would say no because the swap is expensive(swap kit, fuel system, axles, hondata, wiring, etc.) Think of the A3 as a torqey B16. Same HP, just more torque and a lower redline.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kelly. »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">people have made great power on a ls, but the huge power is made on the b18cx motors (or with a vtec head)
or am i just thinkin to far unto it?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have seen a lot of high compression LS/Vtec motors that are making just over 200 whp. IMO, I would much rather spend that money on an A2 swap with i/h/e and hondata and have 215-230 whp on a completely unopened motor(basically stock). That way it is also just as reliable as a K in a DC5 or EP3. Not true for LS-Vtec.
I am in the process of saving for a K-swap right now. I plan on buying a K20A2 and eventually doing headwork and cams. With these mods 250whp is easy. The Jun DC5-R in Japan has 250whp with i/h/e, ecu and their prototype cams with valve springs. Not bad if you ask me. The K-Series is the way of the future.
I think too much money and work is involved in making big NA HP with the B-Series. If money is no object, throw a full-race turbo kit on your k-swap and have 500whp in a stock long block. Not too many B-Series can do that.
I hope that helps.
would a good set of cams help out on the intake side maybe?</TD></TR></TABLE>
In a sense it is the ls of the k-series. I may be wrong, but I dont think you can just throw cams in there. The exhaust cam operates differently, not like Vtec at all. In order to make it true Vtec I think you have to do rockers and stuff like that. Not worth it.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kelly. »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you also said the block isnt as strong, i was under the impression that the short block was the same for all k20's/k24's (with only the C/R , head and IM being differnt)
i mainly ask because if you could get a k20a3 or any k24 (except the tsx) at a good price, would it be worth it?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I am positive that the block for the A3 is not as strong as the A2. The A2 is built for higher rpms so it has stronger rods and a better crank, etc. The A3 wasnt designed for more than 7000rpms.
If you dont want to spend money on a K20A2 or K24A2(TSX) then I would recommend a K24 over the K20A3. That way you get some torque and you still have the 7000 rpms. Plus they are very low compression from the factory so they are good for boost. Not to mention they're great on gas mileage.
As far as the A3 being worth it. If you plan on upgrading to the A2 or A later down the road then I would say yes, it is worth it. If you will never uprage and just keep the A3, I would say no because the swap is expensive(swap kit, fuel system, axles, hondata, wiring, etc.) Think of the A3 as a torqey B16. Same HP, just more torque and a lower redline.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kelly. »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">people have made great power on a ls, but the huge power is made on the b18cx motors (or with a vtec head)
or am i just thinkin to far unto it?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have seen a lot of high compression LS/Vtec motors that are making just over 200 whp. IMO, I would much rather spend that money on an A2 swap with i/h/e and hondata and have 215-230 whp on a completely unopened motor(basically stock). That way it is also just as reliable as a K in a DC5 or EP3. Not true for LS-Vtec.
I am in the process of saving for a K-swap right now. I plan on buying a K20A2 and eventually doing headwork and cams. With these mods 250whp is easy. The Jun DC5-R in Japan has 250whp with i/h/e, ecu and their prototype cams with valve springs. Not bad if you ask me. The K-Series is the way of the future.
I think too much money and work is involved in making big NA HP with the B-Series. If money is no object, throw a full-race turbo kit on your k-swap and have 500whp in a stock long block. Not too many B-Series can do that.
I hope that helps.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kelly. »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
for an answer
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Sorry, I was away from the computer all weekend. I've got my hands full with a newborn.
for an answer
</TD></TR></TABLE>Sorry, I was away from the computer all weekend. I've got my hands full with a newborn.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NAallTheWAY »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Sorry, I was away from the computer all weekend. I've got my hands full with a newborn.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
you da man!
i plan on getting a k swap after i get my sohc to ~ 400 whp
just want to start doin the research now to see what all is needed, and to avoid buying a motor that isnt worth it.
i plan on boosting a k swap if i get one.
i figure with pistons and rods i will be able to make the poweri want , especailly if i could get 500 on a stock block
thanks again for all your help.
i guess ill start looking for a a2 or a tsx motor.
Sorry, I was away from the computer all weekend. I've got my hands full with a newborn.
</TD></TR></TABLE>you da man!
i plan on getting a k swap after i get my sohc to ~ 400 whp

just want to start doin the research now to see what all is needed, and to avoid buying a motor that isnt worth it.
i plan on boosting a k swap if i get one.
i figure with pistons and rods i will be able to make the poweri want , especailly if i could get 500 on a stock block

thanks again for all your help.
i guess ill start looking for a a2 or a tsx motor.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kelly. »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
you da man!
i plan on getting a k swap after i get my sohc to ~ 400 whp
just want to start doin the research now to see what all is needed, and to avoid buying a motor that isnt worth it.
i plan on boosting a k swap if i get one.
i figure with pistons and rods i will be able to make the poweri want , especailly if i could get 500 on a stock block
thanks again for all your help.
i guess ill start looking for a a2 or a tsx motor.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Check out k20a.org
All the info you need on anything K releated.
you da man!
i plan on getting a k swap after i get my sohc to ~ 400 whp

just want to start doin the research now to see what all is needed, and to avoid buying a motor that isnt worth it.
i plan on boosting a k swap if i get one.
i figure with pistons and rods i will be able to make the poweri want , especailly if i could get 500 on a stock block

thanks again for all your help.
i guess ill start looking for a a2 or a tsx motor.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Check out k20a.org
All the info you need on anything K releated.
"Since this is all only and estimate, I'm assuming around $4500 before any sort of labor and before Kpro which some have said I need and some have said otherwise."
so, is k pro entirely necessary???
so, is k pro entirely necessary???
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kelly. »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so basically they are the "ls" of k series ?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Not exactly. The K20A3 may be the 'LS of K-series' in the sense that it is the lesser motor. But the LS is actually better in some ways. At least the LS has some potential to make more power with upgrades. But with the K20A3, the upgrades are, in many cases, just not available.
Not exactly. The K20A3 may be the 'LS of K-series' in the sense that it is the lesser motor. But the LS is actually better in some ways. At least the LS has some potential to make more power with upgrades. But with the K20A3, the upgrades are, in many cases, just not available.
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