Having an argument with DSM people, and they are saying 14b is all a built d16 will need. Cuz it can make 20psi on a DSM. ??? What is the highest HP it can make on a built d16, and what is the reason why I need a bigger turbo?

Thanks.

 

They can argue all they want but they'll still never be right.

I think it has something to do with how much the head flows compared to a dsm.

 

isnt 20 psi past its efficiency? i used to own a dsm, and it made no power from 6k-7k.

 

awesome. Give me more reasons please.

 

that little turbo is gonna run really hot when its flowing 20 psi, and it won't last too long either

 

running really hot because its out of its efficiency range?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beef-cake &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">running really hot because its out of its efficiency range?</TD></TR></TABLE>

im not sure if it is past its range, but i would think so. its probably why an old school dsm makes only 190 bhp on 11 psi stock.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beef-cake &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">running really hot because its out of its efficiency range?</TD></TR></TABLE>yup

cold air = power (cold air intakes, intercoolers)

hot air = no power, out of efficiency range

at 20psi, that turbo is probably a hair dryer

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AbitAvenger &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yup

cold air = power (cold air intakes, intercoolers)

hot air = no power, out of efficiency range

at 20psi, that turbo is probably a hair dryer</TD></TR></TABLE>


i cant remember who said it, but in a Kills thread, somebody said this about a maxed out stock turbo evo: "yay, lets blow burning hot air into the engine!"

 

you don't even need a built block to max out that turbo. and yeah past like 18 psi those things blow(literally). a friend of mine zinged his up to 23psi on the stock motor/turbo, thanks to methanol injection

 

cool, anything else to add to this good conversation?

 

all this posts and nothing was said

get the compressor flow map for the 14B

map put the point where YOUR engine will be on the map at a certain boost level

20 psi on a 2.0L DSM motor is not the same as 20 psi on a 3 cylinder yugo motor (for example)

only the compressor flow map will tell you if u are out or not from the efficiency

many people talk to much crap out of them, and thanks to the 14B turbo i get max torque at 6650 rpms, that right there proves it doesnt die after 6k rpms

 

wow, thats very surprising, since im not very turbo educated. you must have a good setup, i know from research that my old dsm would make power to redline if i got a bigger DP back exhaust, but the peak torque was at 3000. the higher compression ratio probably has something to do with it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by USDM 4G VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">all this posts and nothing was said

get the compressor flow map for the 14B

map put the point where YOUR engine will be on the map at a certain boost level

20 psi on a 2.0L DSM motor is not the same as 20 psi on a 3 cylinder yugo motor (for example)

only the compressor flow map will tell you if u are out or not from the efficiency

many people talk to much crap out of them, and thanks to the 14B turbo i get max torque at 6650 rpms, that right there proves it doesnt die after 6k rpms</TD></TR></TABLE>
You really shouldnt be getting your max torque that high unless something is wrong where the car loses power from about 4500-6500 rpms or maybe you are having boost creep up in higher rpms?

 

well I understand that the 14b compressor map, or any compressor map is what you need to plot the boost level and flow of the motor to figure out what efficiency range you are in.

But I was just wondering if there is more to why the 14b isn't a big enough turbo for a built d16.

 

It simply wont make anywhere near the power a build d16 is capable of.

 

The reason is because people have some unusual compulsion to get an oversized turbo, whereas factory turbo guys seem to be the reverse. The fastest guys don't listen to others, they test all the mathematicly sound options and pick the best.

You could do better with a build d16, but I know with the wastegate sealed shut on a dsm, it maxes at ~27psi and drops to low 20's at redline. You'd be better off getting a volvo t3 and upgrading in the future if needed. I know a b16 can make 250whp with a 60trim T3 at ~10psi, so I'd imagine that a build motor with a smaller turbo running twice the psi could do a bit better.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It simply wont make anywhere near the power a build d16 is capable of.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Can you explain the reason why it won't make anywhere near the power a built d16 is capable of, like the scientific reasoning? Is it compressor efficiency, and the engine CFM that makes the 14b too small? As in a built d16 could handle more CFM flow from a larger turbo, at that same 20psi at redline?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The reason is because people have some unusual compulsion to get an oversized turbo, whereas factory turbo guys seem to be the reverse. The fastest guys don't listen to others, they test all the mathematicly sound options and pick the best.

You could do better with a build d16, but I know with the wastegate sealed shut on a dsm, it maxes at ~27psi and drops to low 20's at redline. You'd be better off getting a volvo t3 and upgrading in the future if needed. I know a b16 can make 250whp with a 60trim T3 at ~10psi, so I'd imagine that a build motor with a smaller turbo running twice the psi could do a bit better.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Can you explain why the trubo drops to 20psi at redline, when it can do 27psi? I thought the boost was dependent apon the amount of exhaust flowing out of the motor, and if the motor is at a higher rpm, doesn't it have more exhaust, and thus spin the turbo faster?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You really shouldnt be getting your max torque that high unless something is wrong where the car loses power from about 4500-6500 rpms or maybe you are having boost creep up in higher rpms?</TD></TR></TABLE>
#1 i am no newbie at this
#2 theres no boost creep on my setup in high rpms, ok!
#3 my max tq used to be at 5200 with an HF manifold, and now 6650 on my home made manifold

but most of all, explain to me why i wouldnt make my max tq there? why there has to be something wrong? this has gone for over a year and still pulls... do i smell hating?

to give you more proof... heres a dyno sheet, where i made 195 ft-lbs @ about 14' AFR's wich is pretty lean and not desired
http://felix.tcecnc.com/Pics/dynotune/4gmaxtq.JPG

and heres a dyno after richening a lil more...
http://felix.tcecnc.com/Pics/d...e.JPG

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beef-cake &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Can you explain the reason why it won't make anywhere near the power a built d16 is capable of, like the scientific reasoning? Is it compressor efficiency, and the engine CFM that makes the 14b too small? As in a built d16 could handle more CFM flow from a larger turbo, at that same 20psi at redline?</TD></TR></TABLE>
The turbo just simply isn't efficient at the airflow level you would be trying to flow. For instance a built d16 could make 4-500whp. Anybody idiot should know that turbo wont make that much power.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beef-cake &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Can you explain why the trubo drops to 20psi at redline, when it can do 27psi? I thought the boost was dependent apon the amount of exhaust flowing out of the motor, and if the motor is at a higher rpm, doesn't it have more exhaust, and thus spin the turbo faster?</TD></TR></TABLE>


because the turbo simply cannot move enough air fast enough to maintain the high boost level

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by USDM 4G VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">#1 i am no newbie at this
#2 theres no boost creep on my setup in high rpms, ok!
#3 my max tq used to be at 5200 with an HF manifold, and now 6650 on my home made manifold

but most of all, explain to me why i wouldnt make my max tq there? why there has to be something wrong? this has gone for over a year and still pulls... do i smell hating?

to give you more proof... heres a dyno sheet, where i made 195 ft-lbs @ about 14' AFR's wich is pretty lean and not desired
http://felix.tcecnc.com/Pics/dynotune/4gmaxtq.JPG

and heres a dyno after richening a lil more...
http://felix.tcecnc.com/Pics/d...e.JPG

</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm not sure exactly how you figured I was hating on your car. In my opinion you are losing power somewhere. If you are making that much torque at such a high rpm then you should be making similar torque in lower rpms. I'd like for you to find me another sohc dyno with a similar power curve on a small turbo.

Another thing....look back at your old dyno vs. the new one. The old one had a shitload more torque in the lower rpms! https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1246026


Modified by SOHC_MShue at 1:54 AM 3/20/2006

 

There is nothing wrong with the 14b's compressor...

A turbo's compressor is simply telling you how much air it could push. It is viewed by pressure ratio and the amount of airflow. As long as the engine is not drawing more air than the compressor's rating (such as trying to run 300WHP on the 14B which is rated for 220-240 WHP I believe), then the 14B's compressor has no probs keeping up with the flow demand. The 14B simply doesn't "max out" because it is being put on a Honda...

The 14B does not have issues with "blowing hot air" on a Honda. This is such a wrong misinformation. In fact, because a Honda head flows pretty good, it would only put you at a lower pressure ratio on the compressor map which means more efficiency and cooler air! If the Honda is planning on running between 170-190WHP, the 14B's compressor has no problems supplying the air the engine wants.

The restriction on the 14B is the TURBINE and turbine housing combo. The DSM is an AWD 2.0L engine, mainly all the power is desired starting off idle or 2000RPM and up, and this is achieved by small turbine, small housing. For a typical Honda, power is desired beteen 4000-redline. Im most cases, when a Honda wants to run the 14b well into it's operating range (close to 80-95% of turbo's capacity), it would likeky have problems holding steady boost all the way up to redline even if it is within its compressor flow rating. The exhaust side would probably be choking and preventing boost from being steady, therefore, this is why most Honda guys steer away from this turbo if top-end power and linear power curve is the target.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tony the Tiger &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There is nothing wrong with the 14b's compressor...

A turbo's compressor is simply telling you how much air it could push. It is viewed by pressure ratio and the amount of airflow. As long as the engine is not drawing more air than the compressor's rating (such as trying to run 300WHP on the 14B which is rated for 220-240 WHP I believe), then the 14B's compressor has no probs keeping up with the flow demand. The 14B simply doesn't "max out" because it is being put on a Honda...

The 14B does not have issues with "blowing hot air" on a Honda. This is such a wrong misinformation. In fact, because a Honda head flows pretty good, it would only put you at a lower pressure ratio on the compressor map which means more efficiency and cooler air! If the Honda is planning on running between 170-190WHP, the 14B's compressor has no problems supplying the air the engine wants.

The restriction on the 14B is the TURBINE and turbine housing combo. The DSM is an AWD 2.0L engine, mainly all the power is desired starting off idle or 2000RPM and up, and this is achieved by small turbine, small housing. For a typical Honda, power is desired beteen 4000-redline. Im most cases, when a Honda wants to run the 14b well into it's operating range (close to 80-95% of turbo's capacity), it would likeky have problems holding steady boost all the way up to redline even if it is within its compressor flow rating. The exhaust side would probably be choking and preventing boost from being steady, therefore, this is why most Honda guys steer away from this turbo if top-end power and linear power curve is the target. </TD></TR></TABLE>

good information. i learned something new