Ok we'll I am a we-todd and can't seem to figure this out. That along with the fact that I can only work on the car for about an hour or two every two weeks is starting to take its toll on me.

Take a look at these pictures, they are of the cam gears with the engine at TDC (white notch on the crank pully).







The exhaust cam looks right to me because remember since I shaved the head, it'll be off due to the slack being taken up by the tensioner.

Shot of the entire engine

 

damn 180 120 90 90 doesnt sound right at all.

but damn i am not a engine specialist .. cant help you much. sorry

good luck

 

It looks like you are off a tooth somewhere. Even when you shave the head it does not make the belt have that much slack.. Set the crank at tdc and the cams at tdc and work from there..Aftermarket cam gears can make it a little funny to read the marks. To me it looks like you are off a tooth at the crank, but just a guess from the pics. Good luck. Nice setup!!

 

your cam gears will be like that will a MILLED head....i don't remember though if the way you have them is right....

i'll look at mine in the morning day light and let you know....

did you replace the rings on the bottomend?

was this the head from RLZ?

 

socket extension in spark plug hole never fails. then readjust those valves and see what you get.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RTW DC2R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">socket extension in spark plug hole never fails. then readjust those valves and see what you get. </TD></TR></TABLE>

good advice!!

 

also, from the pic, looks like you can rotate the crank CCW and it will tighten the slack on top, and turn the exhaust cam and line it up with the intake cam. if you do that, where is the mark on the crank pulley? (I wouldnt be too concerned if the mark it EXACT on the timing cover, I would be more concerned with mark on oil pump gear). line everything up, remove the crank pulley, and see if the oil pump gear lines up with the mark on the block.

 

may be stupid but has the motor been started yet?

 

Your teeth will be off a bit.

Mine are off 1/2 tooth and I have about 14thou off the block and head combined.

However, I believe your teeth are off in the <U>wrong</U> direction. The line on the exhaust cam should be higher than the one on the intake (taking the assumption of the milled head).

Keep the crank at TDC and re-do the belt over the cams.

 

I may be wrong, and if so please correct me, but I think you may have skipped a tooth. IIRC the exhaust cam gear should be a bit above the intake cam gear at TDC if you shaved the head, rather than a bit below. Just out of curiosity, have you done a leakdown test as well? If so, what were the results? If they were poor, could you hear air escaping either by ear or vie stethoscope?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">However, I believe your teeth are off in the <U>wrong</U> direction. The line on the exhaust cam should be higher than the one on the intake (taking the assumption of the milled head).</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mythias &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">IIRC the exhaust cam gear should be a bit above the intake cam gear at TDC if you shaved the head, rather than a bit below. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I am going to have to disagree with my esteemed colleagues. The exhaust cam appears to be retarded. B-series motors rotate counterclockwise. If you put a wrench on the exhaust cam and rotated it in the direction of rotation to take the slack out of the belt, it should line up nicely with the intake cam (and the plane of the head).



You have more slack in your t-belt than I like to see on my engines. Your compression is most assuredly a cause for concern

 

The maximum resurface limit is .008"(on GSR, this should be similar), you said you took off .025"? I'd be worried about valve to piston contact.

 

The timing looks fine however you need to readjust the belt. After having a motor with a milled head you get really good at putting on the belt and having the tension be perfect. Just a note on tension, make sure the top and left side are relatively tight (with the car at TDC), then stick a screwdriver or something to lift up on the tensioner on the right side to make it relatively tight (there should be a little play). As for compression do a leak down test. I don't think the issue is timing related.

 

1) The t-belt is tight... i mean uber tight. Tighter then I like to see it really. Not sure why it looks like there is slack between the gears.

2) If you rotate the engine counter clockwise, the gears line up with each other and the plane of the deck.

3) The motor has not been started.

4) No leak down test as I don't have a leak down tester.

As for the direction the cams have rotated, if you think about it, it is correct. The head has moved down 0.025 so the slack in the belt is taken up by the tensioner on the back (intake) side of the motor so the timing belt would rotate clock wise, thus moving the cams clock wise.

Ug.. I'm lost.

Could I have bent some rods? Is there any easy way to tell? Should I just pull the head again and a) check to see if the pistons come all the way up to the deck and b) drop the valves and check them?

Craig - Who is really starting to hate cars

Modified by AssPenny at 10:22 AM 3/14/2006


Modified by AssPenny at 10:26 AM 3/14/2006

 

the belt looks EXTREMELY loose at the top of the cam gears. Id be willing to bet you could probably slide it off the gears by hand. I think at this point, you need to reinstall that belt, and retension it using the helms method. if its uber tight all around, there should be NO SLACK on the top of the gears. be sure you DO NOT rotate the crank CW when tensioning the belt. if you go too far when trying to set TDC and then 3 teeth past, rotate it all the way around again rather than rotating it backwards. as long as the cams are lined up with the plane of the head(might not be exact due to milled head), and piston is at TDC, you should be set.

as I asked before, if you rotate the crank CCW and line up the gears, it looks like it will be perfect. but Im curious where the mark on the crank or oil pulleys line up.

AND I WOULD NOT TRY TO START IT LIKE THAT.

 

get the slack out and then get it started to see if that will seal up the compression

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RTW DC2R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">as I asked before, if you rotate the crank CCW and line up the gears, it looks like it will be perfect. but Im curious where the mark on the crank or oil pulleys line up.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I did that and it looked like it was moved foward about 3 or 4 degrees. But I don't have a degree wheel so I don't know for sure.

As for starting the motor... I have cranked it, that is how I did the compression test, but I have not started and will not untill my numbers are where they should be (should be over 200)

My problem is I'm in TX and my car is in FL so I can only work on it when I'm in town which is about every other weekend at this time.

 

Um...you sure it's at TDC? Set the crank and cams to TDC, pull out the sparkplug in cylinder #1 (driver side) and use your dipstick to make sure the piston is at the top. You may need to spin the crank 180 degrees and readjust the timing belt.

 

I guess I'll have to drive 4 hours to fix it eh?

 

iirc, there's a way to calculate how many degrees your cams are retarded by how much you've taken off the head or decked the block, etc...

I'll see if I can dig it up for you.

THEN you would advance both cams to compensate for this... Another reason I don't like to mill or deck...

Did you degree the cams in or clay the motor?

 

which way is advancing the cams? if you are looking from the cam gear side, rotate CW or CCW? motor rotates CCW, so I would assume CCW would advance.

 

It loks to me that the timing marks on the intake gear are not lined up properly. Also did you try just lining up the two marks on the cam gears and the crank pully and putting the belt on that way. my head is milled and that is what I do and it works just fine.

also he took the pics at 4:20

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AssPenny &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok we'll I am a we-todd and can't seem to figure this out. That along with the fact that I can only work on the car for about an hour or two every two weeks is starting to take its toll on me.

Take a look at these pictures, they are of the cam gears with the engine at TDC (white notch on the crank pully).







The exhaust cam looks right to me because remember since I shaved the head, it'll be off due to the slack being taken up by the tensioner.

Shot of the entire engine
</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

Ok, looking at the cam gears and reading the whole thread again, here's what I would do:

Assuming you have MADE SURE the crank is at TDC with cyl #1, and the marks on the crank line up on the bottom end of the block... (take off the crank pulley and look at the actual markings on the crank and on the block).

THEN if the cam gears look like this (which is how the exhaust cam should look if the head is milled)... make sure the intake cam is at that same tilt.

If this picture is already representing what I've said, then put a 14mm on the intake cam. Loosen the tensioner bolt a tiny bit. MAKE SURE IT DOESN'T FALL OFF THE PIVOT POINT, then do the coathanger/ screwdriver trick on the tensioner - WHILE turning the intake cam clockwise a couple of degrees (to get the slack out from between the two cam gears). Then make sure the tensioner absorbs this slack (it should be able to with the coathanger/ screwdriver trick). If the tensioner is already at it's max, then double-check to see if it is indeed on it's pivot point/ eyelet. If it has fallen off of there, you won't be able to get enough tension!

Finally, if the cam gears are in unison (which they should be), and aligned with the crank exactly, but there is still some slack in the belt, then you may have to slot out the tensioner (this happens in extreme cases where the tensioner can't take all the slack out because the head was milled too much or the block was decked too much, etc).

Good luck and call me if you need any more help (check PM).

&lt;--- been there, done that, and it's a real PITA.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BryanPendleton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Here a rough formula for figuring your cam timing error:

E = x/(D*Pi)*360

where E is your cam timing offset in degrees, x is change of cam centerline (sum of block milling, head milling and gasket thickness changes), D is the diameter of your cam gear. Oh and Pi is 3.1415927....

Multiply E by 2 for offset in crank degrees.

Don't know D for B motors, but if you assume 3", which is probalby pretty close, then your .0013" will only change timing by 0.1 crank degrees. . . Which I assure you is well below MFR tolerancing.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1559302

 

Ya know, if the cam timing was off, don't you guys think that the compression would still be roughly equal for all the cylinders?

I recommend a leak down test and having a look at your valve lash clearances.

The cam timing marks are just fine.

The cams are slightly retarded. To prove it, all you need to do is rotate it CCW a little more until the cam gear marks are parallel and when you look at the crankshaft pulley pointer, it'll be almost .25" past the white mark.

The slack looks mostly ok too. It's always going to be a little lax when you've got the cams and crank phased to TDC #1. When you're two to three teeth past TDC #1 is when it tightens up across the top again.