buggin bout camber!!!!
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles, ca, united states
buggin bout camber!!!!
Can anybody tell me bout camber kits for 88 dx hatch cuz my brother in law is paranoid like a meth addict about his tire wear. he has $100 no name ajustable springs with stockies and had it alinged but still need camber . can anybody tell me what types there are cuz i'm f@#@kn annoyed already blabbing about his tire wear.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,820
Likes: 1
From: Surrey, BC, Canada
Re: buggin bout camber!!!! (krz6jdm)
If his toe has been set to the factory specs, he doesn't have to worry about camber wear. Its not camber that shreds tires, its incorrect toe settings. The toe changes drastically when you lower the car.
I ran 30,000 miles on 3.2 degrees of negative camber on the front of my 89 hatch, and only then did I "START" to notice some camber wear.
I ran 30,000 miles on 3.2 degrees of negative camber on the front of my 89 hatch, and only then did I "START" to notice some camber wear.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles, ca, united states
Re: buggin bout camber!!!! (Jaker)
ok he had it aligned and the to should be fine but the tech said camber is the only problem how does he prevent the inner tire from wearing out because that was his biggest problem. thanks for the info
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,878
Likes: 0
From: the lobes of Vtec
Re: buggin bout camber!!!! (Jaker)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jaker »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If his toe has been set to the factory specs, he doesn't have to worry about camber wear. Its not camber that shreds tires, its incorrect toe settings. The toe changes drastically when you lower the car.
I ran 30,000 miles on 3.2 degrees of negative camber on the front of my 89 hatch, and only then did I "START" to notice some camber wear.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That makes no sense at all, 3.2 degress of camber is VERY hard on tires. If you ran 30k w/o much wear then your numbers are wrong and your camber was not that off. I have done alignments for a while and also personally seen how badly camber WILL chew your tires up in even 1000 miles if it's negative enough. The toe will badly chew your tires as well but that is easily fixed w/o the need of a kit. Ingalls makes one of the best camber kits for Hondas and they are gauranteed for life so you can't go wrong. I have run these on all 4 hondas I have owned and sold hundreds to other Honda guys with no complaints at all. Just don't go with a no name kit cause you really get what you pay for!!!!
http://www.autocarparts.com/parts/Ingalls/
I ran 30,000 miles on 3.2 degrees of negative camber on the front of my 89 hatch, and only then did I "START" to notice some camber wear.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That makes no sense at all, 3.2 degress of camber is VERY hard on tires. If you ran 30k w/o much wear then your numbers are wrong and your camber was not that off. I have done alignments for a while and also personally seen how badly camber WILL chew your tires up in even 1000 miles if it's negative enough. The toe will badly chew your tires as well but that is easily fixed w/o the need of a kit. Ingalls makes one of the best camber kits for Hondas and they are gauranteed for life so you can't go wrong. I have run these on all 4 hondas I have owned and sold hundreds to other Honda guys with no complaints at all. Just don't go with a no name kit cause you really get what you pay for!!!!
http://www.autocarparts.com/parts/Ingalls/
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,820
Likes: 1
From: Surrey, BC, Canada
Re: buggin bout camber!!!! (VtecSyndrome)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VtecSyndrome »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
That makes no sense at all, 3.2 degress of camber is VERY hard on tires. If you ran 30k w/o much wear then your numbers are wrong and your camber was not that off. I have done alignments for a while and also personally seen how badly camber WILL chew your tires up in even 1000 miles if it's negative enough. The toe will badly chew your tires as well but that is easily fixed w/o the need of a kit. </TD></TR></TABLE>
You have your opinion and I have mine. And my alignment numbers are correct.
That makes no sense at all, 3.2 degress of camber is VERY hard on tires. If you ran 30k w/o much wear then your numbers are wrong and your camber was not that off. I have done alignments for a while and also personally seen how badly camber WILL chew your tires up in even 1000 miles if it's negative enough. The toe will badly chew your tires as well but that is easily fixed w/o the need of a kit. </TD></TR></TABLE>
You have your opinion and I have mine. And my alignment numbers are correct.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,903
Likes: 0
From: Sin City, NV
toe will tear up the tire itself. adjust the toe and he will be good.
camber affects how much of the tire actually makes contact with the road itself. having negetive camber decreases the amount of road a tire grabs.
camber affects how much of the tire actually makes contact with the road itself. having negetive camber decreases the amount of road a tire grabs.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,878
Likes: 0
From: the lobes of Vtec
Re: (beyondspecs_jamar)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beyondspecs_jamar »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">toe will tear up the tire itself. adjust the toe and he will be good.
camber affects how much of the tire actually makes contact with the road itself. having negetive camber decreases the amount of road a tire grabs.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Which in turn puts more stress on the inner tire causeing to wear out faster. I am actually blown away some of you guys think camber does not affect tire wear badly, there is no opinion at all here is is proven fact. Shocking this is even a debate. Negative camber does not just decrease the amount of raod a tire grabs, otherwise ALL race cars would run 0.0 dgress of camber, negative camber actually improves handling due to the geometry of the car when pushing through a turn, the neg. camber will make it grab a little better due to this. and it turn it WEARS OUT THE INNER TIRE!!!!!
camber affects how much of the tire actually makes contact with the road itself. having negetive camber decreases the amount of road a tire grabs.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Which in turn puts more stress on the inner tire causeing to wear out faster. I am actually blown away some of you guys think camber does not affect tire wear badly, there is no opinion at all here is is proven fact. Shocking this is even a debate. Negative camber does not just decrease the amount of raod a tire grabs, otherwise ALL race cars would run 0.0 dgress of camber, negative camber actually improves handling due to the geometry of the car when pushing through a turn, the neg. camber will make it grab a little better due to this. and it turn it WEARS OUT THE INNER TIRE!!!!!
Trending Topics
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 18,961
Likes: 76
From: I am Tyson
Re: (VtecSyndrome)
vtecsyndrome,
you need to understand slip angles. when the toe is out of alignment, youre running at a constant slip angle, and at enough of a slip angle, the tire loses traction and goes from a static friction to dynamic (like doing a burnout, constantly). thats why badly aligned toe kills tires. which i think you agree with, but i just wanted to spell that out because its an important concept when understanding why camber doesnt affect tire wear (significantly enough to worry).
when driving straight, unless youre running really low tire profile, the contact patch is still going to be across the whole tire tread even if you have lots of camber because the sidewall flexes. and even still, the only resistance at the side of the greater contact patch size is just rolling straight. its JUST rolling resistance, static mu, not dynamic. if a tire is made to last 60k miles, what real tire wear is there?
think about it, if a tire wears out within 10k miles, theres something more than just the difference of rolling resistance at that portion of the tire going on...
now, if you were to do straight line burnouts on an unevenly loaded contact patch due to negative (or positive) camber, then that will wear the tire unevenly. that should be obvious from experience. and also youd get less grip in that straight line, so it makes sense to dial out the negative camber if youre more interested in drag racing.
jakers experience with lots of camber and even tire wear is similar to mine (and several others). ive gone through several sets of tires that i have even tire wear as well. i had an alignment shop as a sponsor so i was contantly getting my car aligned.
you need to understand slip angles. when the toe is out of alignment, youre running at a constant slip angle, and at enough of a slip angle, the tire loses traction and goes from a static friction to dynamic (like doing a burnout, constantly). thats why badly aligned toe kills tires. which i think you agree with, but i just wanted to spell that out because its an important concept when understanding why camber doesnt affect tire wear (significantly enough to worry).
when driving straight, unless youre running really low tire profile, the contact patch is still going to be across the whole tire tread even if you have lots of camber because the sidewall flexes. and even still, the only resistance at the side of the greater contact patch size is just rolling straight. its JUST rolling resistance, static mu, not dynamic. if a tire is made to last 60k miles, what real tire wear is there?
think about it, if a tire wears out within 10k miles, theres something more than just the difference of rolling resistance at that portion of the tire going on...
now, if you were to do straight line burnouts on an unevenly loaded contact patch due to negative (or positive) camber, then that will wear the tire unevenly. that should be obvious from experience. and also youd get less grip in that straight line, so it makes sense to dial out the negative camber if youre more interested in drag racing.
jakers experience with lots of camber and even tire wear is similar to mine (and several others). ive gone through several sets of tires that i have even tire wear as well. i had an alignment shop as a sponsor so i was contantly getting my car aligned.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,878
Likes: 0
From: the lobes of Vtec
Re: (Tyson)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">vtecsyndrome,
you need to understand slip angles. when the toe is out of alignment, youre running at a constant slip angle, and at enough of a slip angle, the tire loses traction and goes from a static friction to dynamic (like doing a burnout, constantly). thats why badly aligned toe kills tires. which i think you agree with, but i just wanted to spell that out because its an important concept when understanding why camber doesnt affect tire wear (significantly enough to worry).
when driving straight, unless youre running really low tire profile, the contact patch is still going to be across the whole tire tread even if you have lots of camber because the sidewall flexes. and even still, the only resistance at the side of the greater contact patch size is just rolling straight. its JUST rolling resistance, static mu, not dynamic. if a tire is made to last 60k miles, what real tire wear is there?
think about it, if a tire wears out within 10k miles, theres something more than just the difference of rolling resistance at that portion of the tire going on...
now, if you were to do straight line burnouts on an unevenly loaded contact patch due to negative (or positive) camber, then that will wear the tire unevenly. that should be obvious from experience. and also youd get less grip in that straight line, so it makes sense to dial out the negative camber if youre more interested in drag racing.
jakers experience with lots of camber and even tire wear is similar to mine (and several others). ive gone through several sets of tires that i have even tire wear as well. i had an alignment shop as a sponsor so i was contantly getting my car aligned. </TD></TR></TABLE>
A MUCH more detailed way of explaining it for sure! I used to work at a performance shop for a couple of years and saw time and time again were people had bad camber wear issues due to camber alone and yes they were all low profile tires which in turn wore them out a litte faster showing steel belts before even 10k miles in alot of cases so this is my experience. it is all subjective to the demands you have for your car but really the main point I wanted to stress was the fact that "beyondspecs_jamar" posted camber is not a problem which as a basic statement is just wrong. It is obviously a very detailed subject for people that are experinced with it but for somebody like the guy who posted this he really needs to just know the simple fact that yes, negative camber (and of course toe) will wear your tires prematurely, the more negative the more wear. I also want to point out that most Hondas I have lowered (somewhere in the hundreds) do not have bad toe afterward (mainly civics and tegs) it's just the camber that goes wack, I know this due to the MANY cars we have put on an alinment rack right after lowering it w/o a camber kit installed. of course installing a camber kit at the same time as a lowered suspension will really throw off toe and camber as well until it's aligned. so to sum up for rookies out there, JUST GET A CAMBER KIT if you want to lower your car right!
you need to understand slip angles. when the toe is out of alignment, youre running at a constant slip angle, and at enough of a slip angle, the tire loses traction and goes from a static friction to dynamic (like doing a burnout, constantly). thats why badly aligned toe kills tires. which i think you agree with, but i just wanted to spell that out because its an important concept when understanding why camber doesnt affect tire wear (significantly enough to worry).
when driving straight, unless youre running really low tire profile, the contact patch is still going to be across the whole tire tread even if you have lots of camber because the sidewall flexes. and even still, the only resistance at the side of the greater contact patch size is just rolling straight. its JUST rolling resistance, static mu, not dynamic. if a tire is made to last 60k miles, what real tire wear is there?
think about it, if a tire wears out within 10k miles, theres something more than just the difference of rolling resistance at that portion of the tire going on...
now, if you were to do straight line burnouts on an unevenly loaded contact patch due to negative (or positive) camber, then that will wear the tire unevenly. that should be obvious from experience. and also youd get less grip in that straight line, so it makes sense to dial out the negative camber if youre more interested in drag racing.
jakers experience with lots of camber and even tire wear is similar to mine (and several others). ive gone through several sets of tires that i have even tire wear as well. i had an alignment shop as a sponsor so i was contantly getting my car aligned. </TD></TR></TABLE>
A MUCH more detailed way of explaining it for sure! I used to work at a performance shop for a couple of years and saw time and time again were people had bad camber wear issues due to camber alone and yes they were all low profile tires which in turn wore them out a litte faster showing steel belts before even 10k miles in alot of cases so this is my experience. it is all subjective to the demands you have for your car but really the main point I wanted to stress was the fact that "beyondspecs_jamar" posted camber is not a problem which as a basic statement is just wrong. It is obviously a very detailed subject for people that are experinced with it but for somebody like the guy who posted this he really needs to just know the simple fact that yes, negative camber (and of course toe) will wear your tires prematurely, the more negative the more wear. I also want to point out that most Hondas I have lowered (somewhere in the hundreds) do not have bad toe afterward (mainly civics and tegs) it's just the camber that goes wack, I know this due to the MANY cars we have put on an alinment rack right after lowering it w/o a camber kit installed. of course installing a camber kit at the same time as a lowered suspension will really throw off toe and camber as well until it's aligned. so to sum up for rookies out there, JUST GET A CAMBER KIT if you want to lower your car right!
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,878
Likes: 0
From: the lobes of Vtec
Re: (beyondspecs_jamar)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beyondspecs_jamar »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">haha yea i mistated my comment and your right. i did state it as NOT a problem when i shoulda said that it was not as BIG of a problem as toe is.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Nice to see we can post w/o fighting
it's all good bro' just the whole "lost in translation" effect of the internet
Nice to see we can post w/o fighting
it's all good bro' just the whole "lost in translation" effect of the internet
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 18,961
Likes: 76
From: I am Tyson
Re: (VtecSyndrome)
i still dont agree with "just get a camber kit to lower it right". im much more firm on "just get an alignment to lower it right".
those customers that had low profile tires, i bet they did their share of straight line burnouts and drag racing. that would be consistent with everything ive said.
anyway, i still have my azenis that have even wear and i have pictures of my old intermediates that wore evenly (actually, they were a bit more worn down the middle because they were 195's on 5" stock Si wheels, which bowed them out, that along with high tire pressure) but not inner "camber" wear. my 13" H4's also have even wear. this is all lowered at various heights from prokit ride height and starting out doing autocross and track days, to almost slammed race height, driving back and forth to the racetrack and around town during my rookie road race season, and after losing my job and thus stopped racing putting some hybrid spring combination somewhere between prokit and slammed ride height.
the only tires i have bad camber wear is on my current crx, the right rear has some wear on the inside. the thing is that im using stock springs! but i know my alignment is totally off, i havent bothered to get it 4 wheel aligned, waiting til i replace a tie rod and buy new tires.
Modified by Tyson at 11:30 PM 3/8/2006
those customers that had low profile tires, i bet they did their share of straight line burnouts and drag racing. that would be consistent with everything ive said.
anyway, i still have my azenis that have even wear and i have pictures of my old intermediates that wore evenly (actually, they were a bit more worn down the middle because they were 195's on 5" stock Si wheels, which bowed them out, that along with high tire pressure) but not inner "camber" wear. my 13" H4's also have even wear. this is all lowered at various heights from prokit ride height and starting out doing autocross and track days, to almost slammed race height, driving back and forth to the racetrack and around town during my rookie road race season, and after losing my job and thus stopped racing putting some hybrid spring combination somewhere between prokit and slammed ride height.
the only tires i have bad camber wear is on my current crx, the right rear has some wear on the inside. the thing is that im using stock springs! but i know my alignment is totally off, i havent bothered to get it 4 wheel aligned, waiting til i replace a tie rod and buy new tires.
Modified by Tyson at 11:30 PM 3/8/2006
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,390
Likes: 1
From: downshifting into 5th,, nyc, usa
Re: (fireant)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fireant »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Even with -2.5 I've had even wear on my autocross tires. 
</TD></TR></TABLE>
at anything less than -2.5 i kill the OUTSIDE of the tire a lot faster on my autox tires.
</TD></TR></TABLE>at anything less than -2.5 i kill the OUTSIDE of the tire a lot faster on my autox tires.
be professional
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 14,842
Likes: 13
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Re: (VtecSyndrome)
No uneven tire wear at all here at -2.5* of camber, with toe set to 0.00" at all four corners. The only time I have had uneven wear is when I've run toe-in or toe-out. My camber settings have never affected my tire wear.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,002
Likes: 2
From: Missoula, MT, USA
Re: (Targa250R)
Question for you guys:
I am going in to get an alignment before I bring my hatch up to college. Do I need to get both front and rear aligned, or will just the front do? I know my toe is off up front because the alignment is off a little, and its shredding my tires. I guess I was just wondering if lowering a Honda affects the rear toe? Judging by the look of the suspension I am guessing no, but does anyone know for sure??
I am going in to get an alignment before I bring my hatch up to college. Do I need to get both front and rear aligned, or will just the front do? I know my toe is off up front because the alignment is off a little, and its shredding my tires. I guess I was just wondering if lowering a Honda affects the rear toe? Judging by the look of the suspension I am guessing no, but does anyone know for sure??
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,390
Likes: 1
From: downshifting into 5th,, nyc, usa
Re: (Tyson)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">of course the rear toe changes too.
ever heard about "passive rear steering"? </TD></TR></TABLE>
yeah man- KICK ***. that's the 88 hype-ARR style lca right? at least that's what my friends tell me... 
ever heard about "passive rear steering"? </TD></TR></TABLE>
yeah man- KICK ***. that's the 88 hype-ARR style lca right?
at least that's what my friends tell me...
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,002
Likes: 2
From: Missoula, MT, USA
Re: (Tyson)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">of course the rear toe changes too.
ever heard about "passive rear steering"? </TD></TR></TABLE>
oh ya
ever heard about "passive rear steering"? </TD></TR></TABLE>
oh ya
be professional
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 14,842
Likes: 13
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Re: (rsca_crx)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rsca_crx »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yeah man- KICK ***. that's the 88 hype-ARR style lca right? at least that's what my friends tell me... </TD></TR></TABLE>
Dude don't get him started
at least that's what my friends tell me... </TD></TR></TABLE>Dude don't get him started
Junior Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
From: Chicago, IL, 60638
Re: (Targa250R)
ive got a quick question, I did a long search! ive got a 91 hatch si w/ da kunckles,& and upper control arms. My ball joint is bad, i was wonderin if there was any difference betweeen stock si upper control arm, and the da arms. Honda wants 100.00 for them with the ball joints in. 
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,878
Likes: 0
From: the lobes of Vtec
Re: (ef9ontime)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ef9ontime »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ive got a quick question, I did a long search! ive got a 91 hatch si w/ da kunckles,& and upper control arms. My ball joint is bad, i was wonderin if there was any difference betweeen stock si upper control arm, and the da arms. Honda wants 100.00 for them with the ball joints in. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I am not 100% sure but I am about 95% sure the DA arms are different, I compared them before but it has been a pretty long time since then and I just can't remember for sure. My Si ball joint was bad so I replaced it w/ an EF 4door upper arm I had laying around, bolted right up.
</TD></TR></TABLE>I am not 100% sure but I am about 95% sure the DA arms are different, I compared them before but it has been a pretty long time since then and I just can't remember for sure. My Si ball joint was bad so I replaced it w/ an EF 4door upper arm I had laying around, bolted right up.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
