A friend of mine told me about an extremely rare JDM ITR crank pulley.....it was suppose to be on a RX model of the type r????.....just wondering if there is any truth to this cause I think I might have this crank pulley

Thanks

 

The ITRx has the same crank pulley as other ITR's. There is no "special" crank pulley.

I would assume the DC2 ITR race base model came with a "CTR" N1 crank pulley, but I cannot confirm this.

 

if anyone's interested, i got the ctr crank pulley for sale, pm for details....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Reid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would assume the DC2 ITR race base model came with a "CTR" N1 crank pulley, but I cannot confirm this.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't think it's true. The CTR N1 crank pulley does bad to ITR motors (see explanation below).

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DJsilkyjr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if anyone's interested, i got the ctr crank pulley for sale, pm for details....</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would not suggest putting this into an ITR motor. If you already did, take it out.

The crank is balanced with the stock crank pulley weight. If the pulley is changed to a lighter unit, the crank would get lighter on one side only. As the crank spins, it would resonate and wear out the bearings super fast.

Also, even if the pulley is installed in a CTR 1.6 motor, it would still not be ideal for anything below 6k rpm. But since the motor is supposed to be race only, keeping rev above 6K shouldn't be a problem. (courtesy of info from "R you serious" after he talked to the Spoon boss about this N1 pulley myth.)

 

^^^Good info, I've heard alot of people say they run that pulley.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wai &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If the pulley is changed to a lighter unit, the crank would get lighter on one side only. As the crank spins, it would resonate and wear out the bearings super fast.

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Following this logic then wouldn't a lightened flywheel be changing the weight on the other end of the crank and thus cause the same bearing wear issue?? Am I missing something?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by W.O.T. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Following this logic then wouldn't a lightened flywheel be changing the weight on the other end of the crank and thus cause the same bearing wear issue?? Am I missing something?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I might not have understood the logic completely....

But since the flywheel and the crank pulley are doing totally different jobs, benefit from lightening one end does not mean the same when lightening the other.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wai &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

But since the flywheel and the crank pulley are doing totally different jobs, benefit from lightening one end does not mean the same when lightening the other.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The way I see it is they are both spinning weighted objects that are bolted onto the end of the crankshaft. Your comment was that lightening the pulley would be bad for the bearings as you are lightening only one side of the crankshaft so the my logic follows that lightening the flywheel would produce an equally bad effect. (In other words I'm thinking that it's OK to lighten the pulley just like it's accepted that lightening the flywheel is OK). Thoughts?




Modified by W.O.T. at 10:00 PM 3/2/2006

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by W.O.T. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The way I see it is they are both spinning weighted objects that are bolted onto the end of the crankshaft. Your comment was that lightening the pulley would be bad for the bearings as you are lightening only one side of the crankshaft so the my logic follows that lightening the flywheel would produce an equally bad effect. (In other words I'm thinking that it's OK to lighten the pulley just like it's accepted that lightening the flywheel is OK). Thoughts?

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Interesting point and logic. Though I always thought the engines were internally balanced.

 

My guess is that (remember tho, I have not blown up any engines myself to prove this point. But I am putting 100% trust on what the Spoon boss said on this regard), load on the FW end is a load being applied uniformly throughout the surface of the FW.

Load at the pulley end is a force in a cross direction coming from the belts.

So ligtening the FW end will not have the same effect as ligtening the pulley end. The latter might even yield adverse effect on the whole balance when it spins.

I was talking to Splitime about this. He runs the N1 pulley on his ITR motor for a while but have not yet had any ill effects. So I guess it just depends on personal belief.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wai &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">load on the FW end is a load being applied uniformly throughout the surface of the FW.

Load at the pulley end is a force in a cross direction coming from the belts.

So ligtening the FW end will not have the same effect as ligtening the pulley end. The latter might even yield adverse effect on the whole balance when it spins.
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A balanced rotating mass is a balanced rotating mass no matter what the mass really is. One end being heavier than another would not affect anything as long as its balanced. I understand what you mean about the lateral force of the belt putting stress on the bearings, but I dont see how a different mass crank pulley would change anything.

What I remember the whole issue being on was dampening rather than balance. The peice of rubber in the OEM crank pulley is said to act as a dampener to any vibration. Thats the whole selling point of fluidamper; they're lighter than stock yet still provide dampening.

I personally run the CTR N1 pulley (for about 5k miles) but might be getting my stock pulley shaved of the AC and PS pulleys and balanced.

 

Wai, that does make some sense. Because the pressure plate is "mated" to the surface of the FW when it's ingaged, then the force is still the same, whereas the belt is not 100% touching the pulley at the same time, if that makes sense. I still thought the engine was internaly balanced though, which in turn wouldn't make a bit of difference in either the pulley or the FW.

Going back to the old V8 mentality (and because I have an ATI dampner) on the mustang I have, it has to be balanced on the actual dampner, or as some call it harmonic balancer. I'm curious if anyone can answer this for me. If the engine is internally balanced, changing either the pulley or the FW would have no adverse affects on the longevity of the engine.

 

takin from Unorthdox racing website. It makes perfect sense to me

How could that little piece of rubber in the stock pulley dampen anything it is just a NVH reducer it is not a harmonic damper anyone who has seen a harmonic dampner would no this. the engines are internally balanced.

4) "Is my crank pulley a harmonic/torsional/vibration damper or a harmonic balancer?"
People are getting their crank pulleys confused with the harmonic dampers found on some V6 / V8 engines. "Harmonic Balancer" is a term used loosely in the automotive industry. Technically, this type of device does not exist. The "balancer" part comes from engines that are externally balanced and have a counterweight cast into the damper, hence the merging of the two terms. None of the applications we offer use a counterweight as part of the pulley, as these engines are all internally balanced.

The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley that makes them look similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress natural vibration and noise from the engine itself, the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to note in these applications, the elastomer is inadequate in size and durability to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda, the Nissan Altima, 1.8L Eclipse, 2.3L Fords, Chrysler 2.2L's, and 1.8L VW's, to mention a few. This is not to say with our pulleys you will hear a ton of noise or feel more vibration from your engine compartment. Most owners who have installed our pulleys notice the engine actually feels smoother. This is result of replacing the heavy crank pulley with our crank pulley. NVH is variable and unique to every car. NVH will increase with the installation of an aftermarket intake and/or exhaust, for example. Think of OEM intake systems in newer cars, they use baffles and resonators in the intake to quiet all the intake noise. Aftermarket intakes eliminate these resonators and create dramatic increases in engine noise from the throttle opening and closing. So to most tuners, certain types of NVH can make the driving experience more enjoyable.

The purpose of a traditional harmonic damper is to protect against crank failure from torsional movement. This is not necessary in most modern engines because of the many advances in engine design and materials. Factors such as stroke length, displacement, inline, V configurations, piston dwell time, piston pin off-set, power output, etc., do determine when and how these harmonics and torsional movements occur.

Again, there is a lot of internet hearsay about crank pulleys. When engine problems occur, too often people are quick to blame the pulley first, rather than taking the time to look logically into why there was a problem. We hope that after reading this you will understand the crank pulleys better.


Some could call this biased but i believe it.

&lt;----Mike who is going to call MythBusters and end this debate once and for all.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekim952522000 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">&lt;----Mike who is going to call MythBusters and end this debate once and for all.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Please do, I'm still wanting to know the answer to the balancing thing.

I remember when you posted that in the last thread about the pulley. It could go so many damn ways as far as damage is concerned. But again and I'll repeat until proven otherwise, IIRC the engine is internally balanced, therfore it wouldn't matter as far as wear to the bearings if you go with that pulley (or any of the other ones for that matter) or a LWFW. Now if you knife edged one side of the crank and not the other I could see it but otherwise I still stand on the internally balanced issue.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dave_B &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

.......the engine is internally balanced, therfore it wouldn't matter as far as wear to the bearings if you go with that pulley (or any of the other ones for that matter) or a LWFW........ </TD></TR></TABLE>

 

Another pulley thread . Like I'm one to talk though.

Nice info Wai . Seems like "stock" is the answer

 

I've just heard of way more people who say they have been running N1 pulleys for ever with no problems and have yet to hear of someone who has blown a motor because of a pulley

 

wai asked to to reply, although im not sure what good i can do, im not mechanic, just the messanger of Ichishima san. Basicaly the way he explained it to me was what Wai has already mentioned. The assembly will be balanced for 1600cc ONLY above 6000 rpms. there is neglegible piston shake below that but idealy as Wai has already stated, race motors hardly see &lt;6000 rpm. This pulley on 1800cc as i was told would last 10k. I am assuming this is under race conditions.
For 2000cc, Spoon san just laughed.

I havnt lost a motor due to this yet , but when doing a recent rebuild last winter i noticed a lot of play in the pistons when i had the head off. The bearings were wearing and it was too much play for me to leave those bearings in..

You also have to take in to consideration that spoons mentality on honda motorsports are entirely different that stateside. Maybe ill just email him and post exactly what he says.

And as for me.. i currently run a n1 pulley in my track car 1600cc

 

hmmmm..... the only person everyone asks is mr spoon. I think we need to e-mail realtime (They have been racing hondas for a lont time to) and see what they say because sorry to break it to everyone but mr spoon doesn't know everything.

&lt;-----Mike who is not saying he does.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekim952522000 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hmmmm..... the only person everyone asks is mr spoon. I think we need to e-mail realtime (They have been racing hondas for a lont time to) and see what they say because sorry to break it to everyone but mr spoon doesn't know everything.

&lt;-----Mike who is not saying he does.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree that we should not count on just one person's comment and treat it as the ONLY fact. So, again, just go with what you personally believe in, be it Unorthdox, or Spoon.

 

It seems that we are not consdering the effect of the single belt on the N1 pulley. It would seem to me that if the belt has a tight spot that could have a great effect on the entire lower end. As we all know the crank pulley and the pulley on the alternator are not going to be perectley round, if you happen to have an area that is very tight this can cause extra vibration, and maybe a very slight deflection in the pulley. This does not seem to be an issue with the OEM pulley as you have the extra belts that can counter act any sort of tight spot.


Any thoughts on this theory???

 

I don't know about you but my alternator belt is not tight enought to have any effect on my crank pulley. Nor do I belive they ever could there simply not that tight.

 

Since this "debate" started, My OEM pulley has been pulled out off the storage and waiting for my decision. You guys are killing me.