I'm sure this topic has been discussed before but I spent about 30 minutes searching old topics on my question but couldn't find what I'm looking for. So please excuse my laziness of asking this question if it's already been discussed and I simply couldn't find it...

I currently have pretty powerful (240whp / 180wtq) 2.0L NA B-series setup in my GSR. It has a B16a tranny with a Quaife. I installed the Quaife back when the motor was close to a stock 1.8L GSR and I've never been overly impressed with the Quaife. It's extremely seamless and very streetable but I don't really care since I no longer drive it on the street (only autox and some road track events). It seems to work well as I really don't have *just* inside wheel spin. Both wheels put the power down but I always read about people talking about their LSD's and how it totally transformed the car. No so in my car. When the engine was stock and even now I still have to ease into the throttle on corner exit, or just end up with a bunch of power-on understeer. In no way does the LSD *pull* the car towards the direction that the front tires are pointing.

I've driven a Sentra Spec V with a Helical LSD and that LSD was pretty impressive as it did feel like the LSD would *pull* you in the direction of the front wheels if you gave the car more throttle. I've also driven ITR's before and that LSD even seems to drive similar.

This months Grassroots Motorsports magazine had an article about an ITR built to the max STX rules and the owner mentioned that when he swapped out the stock ITR LSD to a ATS 1.5way (clutch pack - I assume) that it "transformed" the car (as far as exit speed is concerned). Accepting those words as fact, that tells me that overall this (or this type of LSD) is superior for overall on-track performance over a stock ITR LSD.

So my ultimate question is, would a clutch type/pack LSD be superior over my Quaife LSD? The only street driving I do with the car is drive it from my house to the track (assuming the track is local - out of state events the car is trailered so streetabilty or low speed lockup is not a concern).

 

I can't comment on different LSD types, but with that much power (180wtq N/A?!) I think you'll face the same problem you're having now with ANY LSD. That's simply a ton of power being routed through the front wheels, so you're going to get "power-understeer" no matter what. An LSD can only do so much, there is a limit to how much ultimate grip you have.

I know the feeling... I only have 152whp/129wtq N/A, but in the dry the LSD did indeed "transform" the car while in the wet I have to be careful to avoid that dreaded snap-power-understeer. Just gotta modulate and be careful.

 

I would agree with White98LS. I think you just might be overcoming the grip on the front tires. How wide are your tires/wheels? What kinds of tires do you run at events? R comps or street tires? What's your suspension setup? All these things can affect how you're percieving how your LSD is working. If you have a soft, sloppy suspension you're going to be asking the outside tire to be doing a lot of the work and that inside tire won't have a lot of grip to even use.

While I do think a more agressive LSD (a clutch type setup that way) would benefit you with the power you have, if you don't have a sticky tire or a wide enough one on there, I think you'll still run into the same problem. When I have driven cars with LSD's where I've felt that dramatic difference of being pulled into the apex when putting the power down, it was on cars that didn't have the power to break the front tires loose either. I think the quaiffe is pretty agressive for a stock powered car, but you have a lot of torque you're trying to put down and short gearing/FD also.

s

 

Oh Oh, here we go again, another LSD topic.

-Nothing really to add myself.

 

With that much power it's going to push when you get on the gas too hard and both wheels start spinning. Any high power FWD car is going to have "a bunch of power-on understeer" if you are heavy on the go pedal. A limited slip puts the power to both tires, if you are spinning both tires = power-on understeer. With this said some LSD's are better than others. Quaife's are great as long as you don't unsettle the inside tire (it will spin if you do). I have the same issue with my hatch that has 200 wtq @ 3000rpm GS-R, LS tranny with Quaife.

The Sentra and ITR you drove don’t have the torque to get the same “power-on understeer” you are getting out of your set-up. I’d try rolling on the throttle coming out of turns and see if that helps.

 

Thanks for the replies so far. Agree with most said.

A little more background: I've trophied 2 out 3 times at Nationals (7th in DSP/Integra and 6th in SS/Z06 this year). I've done fairly decent at National Tours (2nd at Phx National Tour - SM/Integra, 6th at San Diego - SM/Integra, 1st at El Paso - AS/S2000). I most certainly don't think I'm one of the best drivers out there, but I'm pretty far from a novice that doesn't understand how to drive a high powered vehicle or the concept of throttle modulation on corner exit (vs just mashing the throttle and blame the car/hardware for not being able to handle my inputs).

As far as setup goes, the car has revalved Koni's with GC's (600f/500r). The car is pretty much setup to be mostly oversteer which I balance back to neutral or understeer with the throttle. I have Kodiak custom 15" wheels that measure 8.65" wide from inside lip to inside lip. The car currently has Hooser A3S05 225/45-15 (I'll be switching to 225/50-15 710's next) which measure about 9.5-10" wide contact patch on these wheels.

Maybe I should rephrase my question. Is there anyone with 1st hand experience (or has a knowledgeable opinion/info) that has gone from a Quaife to a clutch type/pack? Was the performance difference worth the hassle/effort?


Modified by Tage Evanson at 1:33 PM 3/1/2006

 

i drive with on open dif. (STS sucks sometimes haha) but i have driven a turbo hatch in SM with the factory LSD and it wasn't what i called impressive but it did the job...i also drove my friends LS integra with a type r tranny and a Mugen 2way LSD...all i could say was DAMN after the first run in the car...somepeople say 2 ways are too much or whatever but i absolutally loved it

 

The problem with 2-way diffs in a FWD car is that you'll get a lot of push on corner entry. The diff is acting on both wheels 100% of the time.

But yes...there is a remarkable amount of difference from an oem ITR LSD to a good 1.5way clutch-type LSD.

Remember that the quaife is still only a 1-way LSD. Yes, it is superior to the oem ITR LSD, but IMO for a pure racing application, the 1.5way clutch-type will be the superior choice if you are dealing with a FWD car that makes a decent amount of HP. Especially when it comes to the tight corners of an autox course...on a track you may not notice it as much.

 

i've driven rodney's SM car with a super aggressive ATS and several other cars with quaifes. (DSP teg, STX civic most noteable) i personally did not like how aggressive the clutch type was. smooth steering inputs were difficult since everytime the diff locked up it tried to yank the wheel out of your hand. that said, it did an incredible job putting power down. imo, if you've got power to spare a clutch type is better. if instead you need every tenth of a horsepower to make it to the ground, a quaife is a better choice. the number one difference between a clutch and a torsen is that the clutch has to have wheel slip on the inside tire when it locks up and the torsen doesn't. in a low hp car, the quaife would exhibit lower tire temps (good when you're running v710's) and have more power available to accelerate the car since it will bias the torque independent of wheel speeds.

nate

 

I do not notice the ATS diff trying to yank the wheel out of my hands, but then again my car has power steering on it, which may help.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I do not notice the ATS diff trying to yank the wheel out of my hands, but then again my car has power steering on it, which may help.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

is yours rebuilt super aggressive like rodney's? i've driven a half dozen other clutch type setups and didn't experience the same thing. rodney's is so aggressive that even with power steering it tugs on the wheel pretty damn hard.

nate

 

Mine is a D20 like his, but it is at factory spec. I think he did rebuild his quite a bit more radical.

 

I run the KAAZ 1 way clutch type LSD in my STX Integra LS and like you, I only drive to and from local events on the street. When autocrossing, it's pretty seamless, I just don't get the wheelspin and subsequent understeer I used to have. On the track, it's wonderfull. I never notice any pull, I can just get on the throttle earlier and harder and concentrate on my lines. On the street, it's a beast. It tugs the wheel and sounds like axles are breaking in half when you go around corners at part throttle. Give it the boot and it locks up and smooths out. Unfortunately, you can't drive thru town (or the paddock area) at full throttle all the time. Overall, I'd say it's probably the best mod I've made to the car. I've noticed the pulling toward the apex in my wife's SE-R Spec-V, but not so much in my Civic with factory LSD or twith the KAAZ in the Integra. It's definately one of the best mods I've ever done.

 

I know when I first installed the diff I was smacking apex cones like crazy until I adapted my driving style.

The car just turned and gripped that much better.

With the oem lsd the car wanted to wash-out when you tried to power through and out of a turn. With the new diff, I have yet to have this happen.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know when I first installed the diff I was smacking apex cones like crazy until I adapted my driving style.

The car just turned and gripped that much better.

With the oem lsd the car wanted to wash-out when you tried to power through and out of a turn. With the new diff, I have yet to have this happen.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Assuming you're comparing a Type R LSD to an "ATS D20", I'm sold!

Thanks for all the time you guys put into giving your opinions and sharing your experiences/knowledge on a topic that has already been discussed hundreds of times.

 

That's a boatload of power, I'd say that first you need to fix your right foot rather than dumping a bunch of cash on a new LSD.

No LSD can ever fix excessive throttle application if you've got enough power. Like others have said, you'll just spin both tires and understeer.

Fix the nut behind the wheel, it's cheaper!

 

hows the suspension setup beyond the shocks - replacing the busings and motor mounts with stifffer units helps. Also things like traction bars and subframe braces ? all of these things help the on off throttle input easier

 

I've got the Mugen clutch-pack in my SM hatch and can attest to the fact that the thing can be a handfull at times and makes it hard to be smooth, well make that most of the time. But it puts the power down, no question there. Just have to work harder to be smooth, which is an oxymoron in it's own way.

 

I've been co-driving Rodney's car for a couple of years now and I must say that after driving my car (stock b16 with OEM type-r tranny) his LSD is AWESOME. I love it. When I first started driving it I could not believe how when I got on the gas it would literally yank me in to where I had the wheels pointed. This allowed me to get on the throttle WAY earlier than with my car. With that said, if there is a lack of traction i.e. too much throttle, you'll be in power understeer real quick. So, if you learn to be smooth with it, I would say the clutch type is the best way to go.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sdcivic549 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That's a boatload of power, I'd say that first you need to fix your right foot rather than dumping a bunch of cash on a new LSD.

No LSD can ever fix excessive throttle application if you've got enough power. Like others have said, you'll just spin both tires and understeer.

Fix the nut behind the wheel, it's cheaper!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Did you not read the thread? He finished 6th at Nationals in a Z06. I'm sure he knows a little something about throttle application.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by steverife &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Did you not read the thread? He finished 6th at Nationals in a Z06. I'm sure he knows a little something about throttle application. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Tage sucks.. Couldn't drive if his life depended on it!

J/K Tage... However, you do need to ditch this auto x stuff and come road racing. Hope all is well!

Oh and Quaife's work fine for me, but I guess I do only have 125 whp

-Danny

edit: yes, my posts are always worthless!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sdcivic549 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Fix the nut behind the wheel, it's cheaper!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Riiiight.....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tunes12 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When I first started driving it I could not believe how when I got on the gas it would literally yank me in to where I had the wheels pointed. This allowed me to get on the throttle WAY earlier than with my car. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Awesome to hear and exactly what I'm looking for. My car is already a handful so I don't mind a little additional challenge. I definitely understand you need to use an "appropriate" amount of throttle to get the most out of your hardware but I just wanted to make sure there's something better than a Quaife before I go and throw more money at my stupid car (&lt;-- stupid because it's a total underdog in SM, yet I keep spending money on it???).

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DMF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
J/K Tage... However, you do need to ditch this auto x stuff and come road racing. Hope all is well!</TD></TR></TABLE>
LOL! Nice, well I am also currently preping the car (rollbar, big *** rear wing, non-autox compound tires / i.e. 710s) for some of the remaining Time Attacks in Phoenix this year so I'm sure I'll be seeing you soon.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tage Evanson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
LOL! Nice, well I am also currently preping the car (rollbar, big *** rear wing, non-autox compound tires / i.e. 710s) for some of the remaining Time Attacks in Phoenix this year so I'm sure I'll be seeing you soon.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's what I like to hear! Soon enough, you will be building a Honda Challenge car!

 

ATS here, and I'm basically going to say the same thing: it is loud and rickety at low rpm partial throttle... it may be robbing a little bit more whp than a gear type lsd, but it seems to understeer less than the itr lsd (that i have in my other car and that I had in this car before). It's pretty agressive. I'm only in the 185whp range currently, however.....

Also, I've taken to wearing gloves at autox because of the amount of holding onto the wheel I'm having to do... no power steering here.