Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 0
From: Cogito ergo sum, Canada
Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime
I came across this while digging around in the older World Challenge VTS sheets from 2005.
Request for change: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package!!!
http://www.speedvisionwc.com/c...3.pdf
Approval granted
http://www.speedvisionwc.com/c...6.pdf
I wonder how many of those K20's they blew up?
I thought this VTS sheet was also interesting showing some custom RealTime suspension part diagrams for the RSX
http://www.speedvisionwc.com/c...9.pdf
and for the TSX
http://www.speedvisionwc.com/c...9.pdf
And for those poor sods still running a B18 engine:
Reason for Request: Increase torque to make up for smaller displacement!!! As they say, there ain't no substitute.
http://www.speedvisionwc.com/c...5.pdf
Approved:
"Standardization of one engine package. This option is
the least expensive and most reliable package presented. RPM limit will keep piston
speed below 26.5 meter per second. Increase stoke will help to compensate low
torque. Rods of a length of 5.572” may be used in conjunction with the 95mm crank." Now how about a K24 in that little old Type R to ,ah, rejuvenate it.
http://www.speedvisionwc.com/c...1.pdf
Request for change: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package!!!
http://www.speedvisionwc.com/c...3.pdf
Approval granted
http://www.speedvisionwc.com/c...6.pdf
I wonder how many of those K20's they blew up?
I thought this VTS sheet was also interesting showing some custom RealTime suspension part diagrams for the RSX
http://www.speedvisionwc.com/c...9.pdf
and for the TSX
http://www.speedvisionwc.com/c...9.pdf
And for those poor sods still running a B18 engine:
Reason for Request: Increase torque to make up for smaller displacement!!! As they say, there ain't no substitute.
http://www.speedvisionwc.com/c...5.pdf
Approved:
"Standardization of one engine package. This option is
the least expensive and most reliable package presented. RPM limit will keep piston
speed below 26.5 meter per second. Increase stoke will help to compensate low
torque. Rods of a length of 5.572” may be used in conjunction with the 95mm crank." Now how about a K24 in that little old Type R to ,ah, rejuvenate it.
http://www.speedvisionwc.com/c...1.pdf
H-T Order of Merit
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 96,507
Likes: 38
From: Siege Perilous
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (descartesfool)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I came across this while digging around in the older World Challenge VTS sheets from 2005.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I remember when that was going on. It created quite a bit of discussion overseas, because the CL7/CL9 endurance cars tend to be K20's.
I know there's at least one Spoon Euro-R Accord that is a K20, although I heard the car that they had in California was a K24.
I remember when that was going on. It created quite a bit of discussion overseas, because the CL7/CL9 endurance cars tend to be K20's.
I know there's at least one Spoon Euro-R Accord that is a K20, although I heard the car that they had in California was a K24.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,200
Likes: 0
From: One by one, the penguins steal my sanity.
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (descartesfool)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I wonder how many of those K20's they blew up?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Read your own linked docs!
They claim at least 8, from their 2 RSX entries.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Read your own linked docs!
They claim at least 8, from their 2 RSX entries.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,035
Likes: 0
From: Greensboro, NC, USA
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (descartesfool)
Classic "pro racing" lobbying for relative competitive advantage, though more artfully written than usual.
K
K
Trial User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,722
Likes: 0
From: Plotting My Revenge
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (Knestis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Classic "pro racing" lobbying for relative competitive advantage, though more artfully written than usual.
K</TD></TR></TABLE>
What I want to do won't work, so rewrite the rules for me.
K</TD></TR></TABLE>
What I want to do won't work, so rewrite the rules for me.
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 0
From: Cogito ergo sum, Canada
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (Crack Monkey)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Read your own linked docs!
They claim at least 8, from their 2 RSX entries.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well I had read that, but I was rather wondering how many total blow-ups including the first 8 until they stopped using them. Rather expensive overall I would imagine.
Read your own linked docs!
They claim at least 8, from their 2 RSX entries.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well I had read that, but I was rather wondering how many total blow-ups including the first 8 until they stopped using them. Rather expensive overall I would imagine.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 7,126
Likes: 1
From: Culpeper, VA
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (Catch 22)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What I want to do won't work, so rewrite the rules for me.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Which, is easy enough for World Challenge type racing. In blanket rules like IT, you can't do that (although they have by adding restrictors to ITS BMWs)
What I want to do won't work, so rewrite the rules for me.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Which, is easy enough for World Challenge type racing. In blanket rules like IT, you can't do that (although they have by adding restrictors to ITS BMWs)
Trending Topics
Trial User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,722
Likes: 0
From: Plotting My Revenge
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (Honda318dx)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda318dx »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Which, is easy enough for World Challenge type racing. In blanket rules like IT, you can't do that (although they have by adding restrictors to ITS BMWs)</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats true. Pro racing involves big bucks, sponsors, and TV. So very often there are financial reasons for helping something to work.
At the club level, its an exploding can of worms.
The BMW thing is backwards from this. It works TOO WELL under IT rules, so it needed to be unworked a bit. The car should have never been classed in the first place, but its too late for that.
This is why the Type R just got canned for ITS. Too much potential to be "Another E36." I kind of figured that would happen, but it was worth a shot.
Which, is easy enough for World Challenge type racing. In blanket rules like IT, you can't do that (although they have by adding restrictors to ITS BMWs)</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats true. Pro racing involves big bucks, sponsors, and TV. So very often there are financial reasons for helping something to work.
At the club level, its an exploding can of worms.
The BMW thing is backwards from this. It works TOO WELL under IT rules, so it needed to be unworked a bit. The car should have never been classed in the first place, but its too late for that.
This is why the Type R just got canned for ITS. Too much potential to be "Another E36." I kind of figured that would happen, but it was worth a shot.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,788
Likes: 0
From: Charlotte, NC
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (descartesfool)
ok so don't rev the **** out of it?
I'm not sure if this was a good thing or a bad thing, I like that they now have reliable engines but it seems to me the way to derive reiliability form the K20 engine is to not rev the **** out of it and they don't blow up hell they did very well in grand am. The advice to me from one of there fast older drivers was " yeah it's a great motor just don't rev it past 8250 "
So if you can't make enough power to keep up, and you can't rev the ***** out of your motor why not go back to the engine dyno and start with some devlopment work. No No no that wouldn't be right let's just ask for a bigger engine.
Casey - who will glaldy not "wrung the neck" of his competetive package
I'm not sure if this was a good thing or a bad thing, I like that they now have reliable engines but it seems to me the way to derive reiliability form the K20 engine is to not rev the **** out of it and they don't blow up hell they did very well in grand am. The advice to me from one of there fast older drivers was " yeah it's a great motor just don't rev it past 8250 "
So if you can't make enough power to keep up, and you can't rev the ***** out of your motor why not go back to the engine dyno and start with some devlopment work. No No no that wouldn't be right let's just ask for a bigger engine.
Casey - who will glaldy not "wrung the neck" of his competetive package
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,349
Likes: 0
From: Orange County, CA
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (Ekasey)
There was also a standardization issue. I spoke to one of the Realtime crew chiefs at Laguna. Their sponsored efforts are being aimed at running the TSX. The RSX is pretty much over for them. [Vague memory here] But the RSX will be around for a while longer along side the TSX and Realtime didn't need the expense/hassle of carrying two different sets of spares with them all over the country. Not sure about the politics and specifics, but it sounded to me that they were simply not going to run the RSX again if they had to have different engines for them. Seems there were folks who thought keeping them in the series another year was more important than the more logical VTS of making them run the engines they we sold with.
-- All of the above is to the best of my weak recollection of a conversation tangent in which I was only slightly interested. Take it with a grain or two of salt.
-- All of the above is to the best of my weak recollection of a conversation tangent in which I was only slightly interested. Take it with a grain or two of salt.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,035
Likes: 0
From: Greensboro, NC, USA
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (thawley)
...and the rental drivers who were driving the RSX's help pay for the "pro" drivers to be there. They want to be more competitive AND they want to improve the expense side of their financial statement by cutting costs - of rebuilds and differentiation of parts.
Note that I'm NOT saying this is necessarily bad. It's just a great illustration of how the system works at that level. It's not "fair," nor is it supposed to be.
K
Note that I'm NOT saying this is necessarily bad. It's just a great illustration of how the system works at that level. It's not "fair," nor is it supposed to be.
K
Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,637
Likes: 0
From: Northern, CA, USA
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (Ekasey)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ekasey »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok so don't rev the **** out of it?
I'm not sure if this was a good thing or a bad thing, I like that they now have reliable engines but it seems to me the way to derive reiliability form the K20 engine is to not rev the **** out of it and they don't blow up hell they did very well in grand am. The advice to me from one of there fast older drivers was " yeah it's a great motor just don't rev it past 8250 "
So if you can't make enough power to keep up, and you can't rev the ***** out of your motor why not go back to the engine dyno and start with some devlopment work. No No no that wouldn't be right let's just ask for a bigger engine.
Casey - who will glaldy not "wrung the neck" of his competetive package</TD></TR></TABLE>
8250 seems a little low considiring all the guys going to 8600 on stock motor I would think as long as you kept it below 9k everything should hold together fine.
I'm not sure if this was a good thing or a bad thing, I like that they now have reliable engines but it seems to me the way to derive reiliability form the K20 engine is to not rev the **** out of it and they don't blow up hell they did very well in grand am. The advice to me from one of there fast older drivers was " yeah it's a great motor just don't rev it past 8250 "
So if you can't make enough power to keep up, and you can't rev the ***** out of your motor why not go back to the engine dyno and start with some devlopment work. No No no that wouldn't be right let's just ask for a bigger engine.
Casey - who will glaldy not "wrung the neck" of his competetive package</TD></TR></TABLE>
8250 seems a little low considiring all the guys going to 8600 on stock motor I would think as long as you kept it below 9k everything should hold together fine.
Junior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (Knestis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...and the rental drivers who were driving the RSX's help pay for the "pro" drivers to be there. They want to be more competitive AND they want to improve the expense side of their financial statement by cutting costs - of rebuilds and differentiation of parts.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't think Eric Curran was a "rental" driver. The dude is good and he managed to win at Denver in the K24 RSX. I think he podiumed several times including Lime Rock as well.
I don't think Eric Curran was a "rental" driver. The dude is good and he managed to win at Denver in the K24 RSX. I think he podiumed several times including Lime Rock as well.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 4,049
Likes: 2
From: Snowwhitepillowformybigfathead
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (Type_RS_59)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Type_RS_59 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
...Eric Curran ... The dude is good ...</TD></TR></TABLE>
It is SOOOOO Hard to know what you're really seeing at a WC race.
Politics and sandbagging are always a part of the equation.
But having said that...on the day I watched Eric place better than the rest of his teammates he drove a better smarter line and he drove it with more ***** than the rest of his teammates.
Scott, who thinks it's irrelevant whether someone pays for their seat or is offered it along with a check - it's how fast you go!
...Eric Curran ... The dude is good ...</TD></TR></TABLE>
It is SOOOOO Hard to know what you're really seeing at a WC race.
Politics and sandbagging are always a part of the equation.
But having said that...on the day I watched Eric place better than the rest of his teammates he drove a better smarter line and he drove it with more ***** than the rest of his teammates.
Scott, who thinks it's irrelevant whether someone pays for their seat or is offered it along with a check - it's how fast you go!
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,035
Likes: 0
From: Greensboro, NC, USA
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (Type_RS_59)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Type_RS_59 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't think Eric Curran was a "rental" driver. The dude is good ...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Talent has nothing to do with the destinction between "the rental driver" and "the 'pro' driver." (It is significant that I put "pro" in quotation marks.) It might be that the only difference is that the pros are the ones who are getting their rides funded by the rental drivers.
Greg Amy is unashamedly renting a ride from me for the Summit 12 hours. He is clearly WAY faster than I am, but I'm making money - often the clearest attribute of being a "professional" - because he's willing to pay to play.
K
Talent has nothing to do with the destinction between "the rental driver" and "the 'pro' driver." (It is significant that I put "pro" in quotation marks.) It might be that the only difference is that the pros are the ones who are getting their rides funded by the rental drivers.
Greg Amy is unashamedly renting a ride from me for the Summit 12 hours. He is clearly WAY faster than I am, but I'm making money - often the clearest attribute of being a "professional" - because he's willing to pay to play.
K
New User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,339
Likes: 0
From: everywhere
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (Knestis)
K, that makes you a PRO driver! Enough said.
I didn't know the RSXs ran K24s all last season. Wasn't there a street course in which Eric did really well in, but was clearly down on power to anything else out there in the RSX? He even mentioned in the interview that the RSX (in that configuration) only has a chance on tight circuits where power is not such a factor. What are the weights of the RSX and TSX? Given the same power assuming both can now run 2.4Ls, wouldn’t the RSX be the better choice between the two? I’m referring purely to on track performance, not the marketing, etc. aspects of it.
I didn't know the RSXs ran K24s all last season. Wasn't there a street course in which Eric did really well in, but was clearly down on power to anything else out there in the RSX? He even mentioned in the interview that the RSX (in that configuration) only has a chance on tight circuits where power is not such a factor. What are the weights of the RSX and TSX? Given the same power assuming both can now run 2.4Ls, wouldn’t the RSX be the better choice between the two? I’m referring purely to on track performance, not the marketing, etc. aspects of it.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
From: Canada
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (ekim952522000)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekim952522000 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">8250 seems a little low considiring all the guys going to 8600 on stock motor I would think as long as you kept it below 9k everything should hold together fine.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Buzzing the engine upto 8800rpm or so a few times isn't a huge deal.
Buzzing a motor up continuosly to 8250rpm is.
Buzzing the engine upto 8800rpm or so a few times isn't a huge deal.
Buzzing a motor up continuosly to 8250rpm is.
Suspetise...
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,287
Likes: 1
From: Burninating the peasants yo
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (channy)
Yeah, talk to the H1 guys, anywhere close to 9K rpm repeatedly out of a K20 with stock rods = boom.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 13,483
Likes: 0
From: cali
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (Hracer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hracer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">K, that makes you a PRO driver! Enough said.
I didn't know the RSXs ran K24s all last season. Wasn't there a street course in which Eric did really well in, but was clearly down on power to anything else out there in the RSX? He even mentioned in the interview that the RSX (in that configuration) only has a chance on tight circuits where power is not such a factor. What are the weights of the RSX and TSX? Given the same power assuming both can now run 2.4Ls, wouldn’t the RSX be the better choice between the two? I’m referring purely to on track performance, not the marketing, etc. aspects of it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
No the RSX preformance wise sucks in comparision to the TSX. The suspension sucks, and the guys who work for RTR expressed that in the nicest way possible.
the RSX is 150 or 200lbs lighter then the TSX. the reasoning behind this is becuase of the mac struts, which in order to get to handle well must have tons of neg camber at normal ride height, which negativly effects the braking and acceleration.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah, talk to the H1 guys, anywhere close to 9K rpm repeatedly out of a K20 with stock rods = boom.</TD></TR></TABLE>
while the rods always do go, RTR has said that with there built engines the problem lies in the head.
I didn't know the RSXs ran K24s all last season. Wasn't there a street course in which Eric did really well in, but was clearly down on power to anything else out there in the RSX? He even mentioned in the interview that the RSX (in that configuration) only has a chance on tight circuits where power is not such a factor. What are the weights of the RSX and TSX? Given the same power assuming both can now run 2.4Ls, wouldn’t the RSX be the better choice between the two? I’m referring purely to on track performance, not the marketing, etc. aspects of it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
No the RSX preformance wise sucks in comparision to the TSX. The suspension sucks, and the guys who work for RTR expressed that in the nicest way possible.
the RSX is 150 or 200lbs lighter then the TSX. the reasoning behind this is becuase of the mac struts, which in order to get to handle well must have tons of neg camber at normal ride height, which negativly effects the braking and acceleration.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah, talk to the H1 guys, anywhere close to 9K rpm repeatedly out of a K20 with stock rods = boom.</TD></TR></TABLE>
while the rods always do go, RTR has said that with there built engines the problem lies in the head.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 2
From: Boston, MA, USA
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (sscguy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah, talk to the H1 guys, anywhere close to 9K rpm repeatedly out of a K20 with stock rods = boom.</TD></TR></TABLE>
RTR doesn't use stock rods.
s
RTR doesn't use stock rods.
s
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,472
Likes: 0
From: HP, NC, USA
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (Catch 22)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
This is why the Type R just got canned for ITS.</TD></TR></TABLE>
****.
Thanks for trying.
This is why the Type R just got canned for ITS.</TD></TR></TABLE>
****.
Thanks for trying.
Moderator
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 12,232
Likes: 5
From: Browns Summit, NC, USA
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (stevel)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stevel »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
RTR doesn't use stock rods.
s</TD></TR></TABLE>
i do....and haven't blown up my engines!!!
i'd like to know what kind of power these guys are putting down!
RTR doesn't use stock rods.
s</TD></TR></TABLE>
i do....and haven't blown up my engines!!!
i'd like to know what kind of power these guys are putting down!
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 13,483
Likes: 0
From: cali
Re: Questionable drivability and reliability of KA20 package as per RealTime (chad)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
i'd like to know what kind of power these guys are putting down!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
tell ryan (vtecvoodoo) to get his car done and on a dyno.
i'd like to know what kind of power these guys are putting down!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
tell ryan (vtecvoodoo) to get his car done and on a dyno.