I'm relying on the overly intelligent population of the RR/AX forum to aid me in my decision of choosing a good damper for my car. I have already received a fair amount of input, and I would say the results are about a 50/50 split

For this poll and post let's set initial cost of the dampers aside

Originally resevoir dampers were not allowed in H1, as of this year they are with a 75 lb weight penalty. I had my mind made up before this on using the koni 2812s

Now I have two choices, Moton's or the 2812's of course with the motons comes a 75 lb weight penalty

Now let's look at the facts

Brand new car but there is lots of setup data available from contacts I have.

Is 75 lbs worth it?

What going to be easier to get setup and dailed in off the bat?

What is going to be more versatile?

I have good contacts at both companies so revalving, rebuilding etc. should not be a problem

Thanks for any input at all

 

Like anything else in life it depends.........

on the following:

1) Your skill level
2) How similar your driving style is to the set up data you are getting

I am sure if you were Pierre Kleinubing you'd take the 75 pound penalty for the ability to get a near perfect set up but most people can't even get close to a near perfect setup with a set of Moton's.

Most of the set up data you are going to get may suit one particular driver's style which may not mirror yours. The only useful setup data is a "base line" set up. I had set up data for my ex-Grand Am Cup car from the last driver you who drove it in GAC (Mike Fitzgerald) but it wasn't too my liking and I doubt I have his skill.

I see a lot people spending big bucks on suspension systems who have no clue how to set them up, nor the skill to drive them when set up properly.

I'd still go with the Motons but I'd forget most of the set up data unless it's a base set up and do a lot of testing.

 

Joo should get the Koni 2822 since it's like cheating but within the rools.

Granted that it's not as much fun as straight out cheating without getting caught, but they wrote the rules so why not take it?

But, if you were to go Moton and take the 75 lb penalty, then you could get a little feller that weighed 75 lbs and he could ride in the back and move from side to side in the corners to keep that inside rear planted.

Scott, who thinks that you could also weld the reservior onto the moton then it wouldn't be remote anymore...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you could get a little feller that weighed 75 lbs and he could ride in the back and move from side to side in the corners to keep that inside rear planted.</TD></TR></TABLE>

But, why bother?

 

Used 2812s all last season on the S2000!

 

koni. love the 2822 idea as well. soon the rules makers will learn that a rr shock is only a packaging inconvenience with a bunch of other drawbacks and that a quality multi adjustable non-external reservior shock will do everything and possibly do it better.

4-way adjustment no external reservoir FTW!!!

nate

 

2812's for sure, got a set for sale btw

Jason

 

So now out of all the people that voted one way or the others do any of you guys have experience with both dampers?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ekasey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So now out of all the people that voted one way or the others do any of you guys have experience with both dampers?</TD></TR></TABLE>

...silently doesn't raise hand...

Scott, who hasn't even stayed in a Holiday Inn Express lately...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
...silently doesn't raise hand...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

The Coyote will soon know some Moton mojo...as soon as he takes 'em out of the box!

 

you should get whatever you have the time and experience to set up. IMO I would buy a set of Advance Design coilovers with there recommended spring rates and dampening over unloading my wallet on somethig that in all honesty is far beyond your ability to setup first being a new car and second less than familiar with road racing in general

and OT pierre doesn't set up his car the mechanics do, they made major changes that all of the drivers didn't like but proved to be faster and they all seemed to have adapted well

 

get the 2812's, still easy enough for some one like you to tune.....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

But, why bother?</TD></TR></TABLE>

WTF kinda kwestion is THAT?

Scott, who doesn't want to know...If we start asking questions like that the whole economy could collapse!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by suavacito &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...and OT pierre doesn't set up his car the mechanics do, they made major changes that all of the drivers didn't like but proved to be faster and they all seemed to have adapted well</TD></TR></TABLE>

I seen Pierre sneak up on the car and turn the ***** for his own self in sekrit.

Scott, who watched one of the crew one day spin one of the reservior ***** back and forth over and over and over and over while he was talking to one of the drivers..."Who's Da Boss?"...kinda makes me glad I'm a race team of one...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ekasey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Funny how do you know what my abilities are?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

you have yet to produce a working car - maybe step back and take that into context. There is no one on this board who would like to see a k20 powered RR car more than me. But all of this is waste.

If you want to take what I said as derogatory then so be it, it's blunt and to the point if you want jokes ask in the appearance forum. My comment is designed soley to save wasted time and money.

And despite what you may think you know, there is a reality in that I am racing and you are not. I made a sacrafice and you have not. And while you take it that someone simply shows up, I spent last year helping to insure 4 different cars were runing none of which I drove. And FYI I've probably put more hours into changes and cleaning up than you have into your entire car at this point.

Besides all of this I've had some experience with Motons and you won't find them on my car now or in the foreseeable future, simply because I can't afford the level of car or the time needed to set them enough to justify the cost.

I actually asked an engineer from moton a couple years ago what justified the cost, his answer was very simple - "if you have to ask, you would'nt understand the answer" which is one reason why I don't have all kinds of pimpy brian slames protoype parts on my car. Because I don't understand why there necessary.


Modified by suavacito at 11:14 PM 2/26/2006


Modified by suavacito at 11:15 PM 2/26/2006

 

"money is not a factor" - thats the right attitude for buidling anything sucessfull.

how about "able to spend countless hours with a professional driver to fine tune"

or how about

"must attend an event this year"

My experience involves several cars I've owned that were fitted with Motons, and several more I've worked with. I have respect for them, but the 3K difference in price is better spent getting the last 5% out of your driving first

Someday maybe you'll understand why someone would steer you away from stuff you don't understand as being wastefull



Modified by suavacito at 12:06 AM 2/27/2006

 

read you own post your the one missing the point

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ekasey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm relying on the overly intelligent population of the RR/AX forum to aid me in my decision of choosing a good damper for my car. I have already received a fair amount of input, and I would say the results are about a 50/50 split

For this poll and post let's set initial cost of the dampers aside

Originally resevoir dampers were not allowed in H1, as of this year they are with a 75 lb weight penalty. I had my mind made up before this on using the koni 2812s

Now I have two choices, Moton's or the 2812's of course with the motons comes a 75 lb weight penalty

Now let's look at the facts

Brand new car but there is lots of setup data available from contacts I have.

Is 75 lbs worth it?

What going to be easier to get setup and dailed in off the bat?

What is going to be more versatile?

I have good contacts at both companies so revalving, rebuilding etc. should not be a problem

Thanks for any input at all

</TD></TR></TABLE>

1. I gave you a good dampener for your car
2. you had your mind made up but nowhere in this post did you say why
3. results of what ? you cant even know the weight balance or your car as yet or probably get it within a 100 pounds, you mentioned nothing about what type of springs or rate of springs you might use
4. It's easier to setup a shock when you have track time and a dialed in car - you have neither and make no mention of it so I suggested an almost off the shelf easy to obtain brand. Since advanced design is the cream of the ground control crop it's not hard to get the right advice from a company known for a good product.
5. I gave you input and you complained - I guess it's not the all you were looking for

FYI I've had advance design coilovers in the past and I liked them more than any other setup I've had. If my car were solely used for racing I would buy them again

I think it's clear you just don't "like" my answer

too bad - boo hoo

 

http://www.advance-design.com/

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by suavacito &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I think it's clear you just don't "like" my answer

too bad - boo hoo</TD></TR></TABLE>

what you told him was you don't need those get these.


The AD's are not in the same level of performace as a moton or 2812. Im sure Casey knows what does what on a shock, honestly its not like tunning a moton 3 way or 2812 is some impossible shock to tune.

and im no expert but when suspensions are set up im pretty sure it going, pick a damper, then a valving, then a spring rate.


Either shock the moton 3 way or the 2812 will kick ***, i think that the 2812 will do the job and while not adding any weight which is why i would go with it.


something to remeber is people do things differently, doesn't mean that either way is wrong, just people do things differently.

 

no ad's are probably not. But then again an integra is probably not what moton had in mind either, thats a really big difference.

If you call AD and say I've got a setup up like this there going to say "based on x number of cars that handle the way you've indicated we recommend x"

Your not going to get that kind of knowledge from Moton. The people like RTR that run them have the money for testing and have done so and hav 240k of development work into there setup and have the closest to what a fully tuned car as is possible.

It's been awhile but GRM did a shock test and the motons happpend to have the wrong valving and the lap times got worse as compared to other high end shocks like Koni this goes to show that when you start splitting hairs it's really easy to go backwards

and being that motons are as capable as the person that sets them up it's impossible for me to believe that until the car is 110% of race weight save the shocks that the valving should be set.

 

you don't need to explain anything to me about AD's, i talk to mike, jay, dale, josh, and mark on a weekly basis.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by suavacito &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> It's been awhile but GRM did a shock test and the motons happpend to have the wrong valving and the lap times got worse as compared to other high end shocks like Koni this goes to show that when you start splitting hairs it's really easy to go backwards.</TD></TR></TABLE>

you put the wrong valving on any shock and lap times will suffer.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by suavacito &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> and being that motons are as capable as the person that sets them up it's impossible for me to believe that until the car is 110% of race weight save the shocks that the valving should be set.</TD></TR></TABLE>

you can say the same thing about koni's, AD's, and any other shock out on the market, nothing that is adjsutable is idiot proof.

and as for the rest of your comments, im done, i tried to turn this around and save the thread but i give up.

 

I run AD's and like them. If I was to spend money I would buy Motons.

Here is what I observed at last year's ALMS weekend at Mosport, which included Formula Mazda and the World Challenge races as well: 95% of all dampers on all classes of cars that I looked at were from 3 brands, Dynamic Suspensions, Moton and Ohlins, and most had external reservoirs. The Tri-Point Mazdas were using Konis, but I couldn't see what model, and some of the winning Porsches were using Sachs dampers. Looking at what others use is always informative.

 

I would get the cheapest shocks, then upgrade if you actually find your racing against someone.

 

Some pics of what I saw at Mosport

Ohlins on some rather fast cars



Motons
Realtime



On Galati's Mercedes


Dynamic Suspensions on a Honda Challenge car

 

What chassis are we talking about? And can you get that chassis down to minimum weight in the first place? If the car is 75lbs overweight, regardless of shock, then there isn't a penalty to run the RR stuff.