im building a track car (91 civic si) and i was bebating on running turbo (when i say track i mean Road Course/lapping days) the motor would be a B16a and i wouldn't be running a ton of boost or making crazy hp...i would be looking for anywhere in the 210-250whp on a smaller turbo...my question is does anybody run a setup simular and do they have any heating issues with the turbo being ran hard for such a long period of time...im really just worried about the car overheating...would heatwrap and a good radiator and fan be enough? or would i need more? or should i stay away from a turbo B16 as a Road Race only car? thanks for your help and suggestions

 

You don't see a lot of turbo Honda series. So if you are looking to make this into a actual race car you may find it hard to be in a series. Yes, you can do it for DE car and while the car is moving you would probably be okay as far as heat. I would assume that you will be using an intercooler to lower temps. I good fan would be needed while you are sitting in the pits. Also you can use the boat blower fans in the engine bay to evacuate the hot air in the engine bay. If it is going to be a DE car only then by all means go turbo. Just make sure you have it tuned very well and have good oil capacity and good oil cooling abilities.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Toad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also you can use the boat blower fans in the engine bay to evacuate the hot air in the engine bay. </TD></TR></TABLE>

What are boat blower fans? Do you have any more info on them?

TIA

 

They are inline fans, that can be installed in a tube.

Like this:

http://www.shipstore.com/SS/HTML/ATT/ATT17334.html

There are quite a few ways to use fans like this, we were going to use one to try to help cool the exhaust tunnel on a rally car (skid plate reduced ventilation a lot).

May also be good for driver cooling.

Although for engine bay cooling I wouldn't think they'd do all that much good.

 

yeah, im trying to get into a local series here in Louisiana, and you are classed by how fast the car runs, instead of the mods...but from what im getting from you guys...get a good rad and some good fans and maybe an oil cooler to keep the oil a little cooler and of course an intercooler and i should be good to go

 

I run a turbo Integra LS and am just about to start it's third season of being turbocharged on a mostly-stock motor... Everyone told me that it would blow up right away, and some gave me 6 months. Well, it's 2.5 years later and still going really strong, and it's lap times have turned a lot of heads along the way (needless to say, I have done a bit of suspension work too, and I'm not running the LS gearbox or an open differential).

Of course, proper tuning really matters. My fuel ratio starts out at 12.5:1 in boost, and transitions to 11.5:1 by redline. Ignition timing needs to be reduced a bit too. You can get away with running a lot of boost and timing on the street or drag strip, but it doesn't take many laps before that will get you heat soak and detonation on the road course. For this season, I have added better engine management with a two-program switch, so that I can instantly reduce timing and add more fuel if things start to get too hot.

Obviously, heat is going to be your biggest problem. This is amplified by running a FMIC, which greatly reduces and heats the airflow going to the radiator and engine bay. You absolutely must get more <u>fresh</u> air to the radiator and engine bay, and give it a way to vent out of the engine bay. A bigger radiator wont help anything without good airflow. I added an upper vent to the front bumper, and a drop-vent to the hood, so the air comes in through the upper vent, flows through the radiator, over the turbo (cool turbo == more power), and out the vent. It makes a significant difference in reducing heat soak and keeping the coolant and oil temps reasonable. For added protection, I turn the heater on full blast and point the vents away from me... with the windows open, I don't feel it. I'm sure I don't really have to do that to keep the coolant temp good, but it's free and it doesn't hurt.

The other thing you need to do is install ARP head studs. Extended periods of high RPM + boost + heat will cause the headgasket to leak. I screwed up my headgasket pretty much immediately, but it was only a slight leak between cylinder #1 and the coolant when boosting at high RPM. At first, I wasn't sure why my coolant was overflowing and I was finding the radiator full of compressed air, then it just kept getting worse and I overheated the engine pretty badly a few times because of it. ARP head studs can really help to prevent that problem. I'm also running a Cometic HP gasket, which is meant for forced induction, but I would expect an OEM B-series gasket to work fine when used with the ARP studs.

I would recommend overfilling your oil 1/4 to 1/2 quart, since the turbo will suck some down, and mixing in some heavier weight oil for road course use.

 

Photos?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Photos?</TD></TR></TABLE>

With the drop-vent hood...



Before the hood...


And yes, a lot of people give me crap about chopping holes in my car, but I told them that they can't talk until they pass me.

 

I also run a turbo integra. Mine is a DA, and unfortunately i wasnt as lucky motor wise as Weston. But only b/c i was LS/Vtec.

The mods i have done to help with heat are: Full alum radiator, Fal fan w/ adj fan switch, Accusump, remote oil filter from canton (more oil the better). I havent done an oil cooler yet, but may this season. Oh and my turbo is remote mounted in the rear, so it doesn't heat up my engine bay in the least.

Run a good, heavy, synthetic oil.

Tuning is the most important thing really. Run conservative timing and generous fuel. I run Crome on mine and it works well.

I make about 270whp (320 on a dynojet, lol) and it is plenty power for my hoosiers and lsd. I hang with Evo's and STi's all day long. Those dogs are not stock either.

I did my turbo first, but if i were to do it again, i would build my suspension like crazy first, then worry about my motor later, FWIW.

Turbo is FTW though, and fun as hell...

 

one of my customers used to track his turbo b16, full built, right at 400hp on pump gas. He had to upgrade to a nice fluidyne radiator to keep the coolant temps in check, but otherwise all was good. He was the fastest thing on the track, nothing was ever even close... a fairly moded viper was about the next closest thing

 

To OP:

Search for posts by:

Me
-- Cracked ringlands after 8 HPDE days, car fire after another few weekends, cracked exhaust manifold after another few weekends, burned bearings on a turbo...

Dr. Pooface
-- Cracked ringlands after x HPDE days

austrian type-R
-- Fast bastard turbo

Batoutahell
-- Stock motor lasted long time with JRSC, car stolen and ran without oil in chase with police. Motor went bye-bye after rebuild and more HPDE.

Here's a lap at Wakins with my crap-*** driving. First day there, still timid.
http://video.google.com/videop...tkins

Here's austrian type-r.
http://video.google.com/videop...=brno

My advice? Stay N/A. Especially if you're racing. If you change your mind, I'll sell you my motor this summer (built B18C5)

 

Your trying to deter people from turbo, but yet you post sweet videos of tegs passing much more expensive cars.

I think turbo was a childhood dream for me. jk Although that would be pretty cool to hang with the big boys.

Seems like cooling is the key, in addition to making the right modifications to make sure the motor can handle the extra stress being put on it. Probably if one monitors water temp, oil temp, exhaust gas temp, and a/f, you may be able avoid catastrophes.

 

Yeah, the exhaust manifold will see a lot of stress from lateral G-forces... I cracked a header when I was NA too. Make sure you get a good cast iron manifold, and make use of the stock header brace on the bottom of the block. As for your turbo bearings, that's likely from cooked oil. I saw excessive oil temps before I vented the hood. BTW... what engine management were you running?

Other than headgasket, ringlands are usually the first thing to go, but I haven't had any problem. From what I've seen, it's usually detonation and/or excessive heat that causes that (common with FMU setups or poor/overly-aggressive tuning), and it seems to happen to the B18C's more than the B18A/B. I wonder if it's a difference in the piston ringlands, or just the fact that the B18C's rev higher and therefore have more heat and stress, not to mention the higher compression. But regardless of the cause, it's really not that big of a deal to install pistons with stronger ringlands.

I really enjoy being turbo for the road course... it's not cheap and there are several headaches at first, but it can really kick a lot of ***, especially at high elevations where the air is thin (I'm at 5000+ ft).

As for videos, here are a few of mine...

Competition...
Cobra Mustang SVT
Corvette Z06

Open track days...
Porsche 911 Carrera 4
Two M3's and a 911 (bad brake problems started after passing the M3's, so I had to take it somewhat easy and come in, rather than playing with the 911 )
E36 M3 and NSX
Lotus Elise

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SwedBoy2999 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Seems like cooling is the key, in addition to making the right modifications to make sure the motor can handle the extra stress being put on it. Probably if one monitors water temp, oil temp, exhaust gas temp, and a/f, you may be able avoid catastrophes.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ha!

Monitored oil temp: 315+ on hot day (gauge only goes to 300)
A/F: 11:1
EGT: 1700-1800

Sure, you can monitor stuff, but it gets effing hot.

-Chris

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Weston &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Make sure you get a good cast iron manifold, </TD></TR></TABLE>

I cracked a GReddy cast iron manifold.

 

For cooling I would suggest a massive oil cooler, Air-to-Water Intercooler and a Fluidyne Rad. When boosting, its all about cooling as the others have said.

Nice car, Weston...reminds me of what I wanted to do...before...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rotten &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">They are inline fans, that can be installed in a tube.

Like this:

http://www.shipstore.com/SS/HTML/ATT/ATT17334.html

There are quite a few ways to use fans like this, we were going to use one to try to help cool the exhaust tunnel on a rally car (skid plate reduced ventilation a lot).

May also be good for driver cooling.

Although for engine bay cooling I wouldn't think they'd do all that much good.


</TD></TR></TABLE>

100% correct A good friend of mine was able to reduce the heat under the hood using these on his turbo'd EG. He has one on each side of the engine bay near the firewall.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Toad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

100% correct A good friend of mine was able to reduce the heat under the hood using these on his turbo'd EG. He has one on each side of the engine bay near the firewall. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I need to put one of those in my intake tube i wonder what psi they run lol

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kaan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I need to put one of those in my intake tube i wonder what psi they run lol</TD></TR></TABLE>

Funny you say that. Cause we did that too and it helped. If you look in your Grassroots Mag there is a company selling essentially the same thing. It is much cheaper and easier to build your own.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kaan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I need to put one of those in my intake tube i wonder what psi they run lol</TD></TR></TABLE>

You can find plenty on eBay! Actually, there is a company that makes better ones for like $300 that will give you a PSI or two, but it sucks up a hell of a lot of power. I think you can probably build the same thing with a ducted fan unit from a radio controlled jet.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Toad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

100% correct A good friend of mine was able to reduce the heat under the hood using these on his turbo'd EG. He has one on each side of the engine bay near the firewall. </TD></TR></TABLE>

A friend of mine used hoses to grab air from the front bumper and send it behind his FMIC and to the radiator. He says it worked really well... but he doesn't ever go to the road course.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Ha!

Monitored oil temp: 315+ on hot day (gauge only goes to 300)
A/F: 11:1
EGT: 1700-1800

Sure, you can monitor stuff, but it gets effing hot.

-Chris</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yikes! Those are some crazy oil temps. I don't have an oil temp gauge, but I used the ghetto redneck method... spray water on the oil fittings and see if it boils! Before the vented hood, it always boiled immediately (and put on quite a show), the oil pressure gauge would show a noticable drop after several laps, and it cooked the oil enough that I could smell it when I pulled the dipstick. However, after venting the hood, it takes a hell of a lot of laps to get water on the oil fittings to even sizzle, the pressure is better, and there's no more cooked-oil-stench. The last time I was out, I ran it for a good 20-25 minutes straight without any problem, other than my brakes getting too hot (10.3" rotors with Spec-B pads isn't quite enough for a turbo car; I have 11.1" with Spec-VR now...)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SwedBoy2999 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Probably if one monitors water temp, oil temp, exhaust gas temp, and a/f, you may be able avoid catastrophes.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The problem is, monitoring when it *counts*. Like on-track, at 100%. In that situation, people are lucky if even a giant shift light gets their attention. But guages most certainly will not...

My .02 cents. I had a reliably turbo'd honda for 2 years daily driven, frequently autoxed. While it never "broke", I didn't trust it the way I would a NA motor. If you're willing to live with that itch between your shoulderblades than go for it because the power is fun. But now I have a NA B18CR and I couldn't be happier. I'm not going back to turbo anytime soon.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fsp31 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The problem is, monitoring when it *counts*. Like on-track, at 100%. In that situation, people are lucky if even a giant shift light gets their attention. But guages most certainly will not...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I try to make a habit of scanning my gauges for this purpose. That can be difficult to do safely while you're driving at 10/10ths with cars around you, but it is possible. With good gauge location, you can glance at it frequently enough to make sure everything is mostly alright. I have noticed that the check engine light gets my attention pretty good, and I'm using that as a shift light.

I'll also be datalogging this season, which obviously wont change anything while I'm in the car, but it will be a big help in further fine tuning the engine management and discovering any problems and their causes before the next race.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Weston &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I try to make a habit of scanning my gauges for this purpose...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

It should be a habit PERIOD...on a front straight is usually the best location on a track to check your harness, check your gauges and make any small adjustments you have to make.