[rant]

WTF!!!!!!!!!

I ran Group2 this past weekend at VIR and had a great time and learned alot. BUT, in every classroom session we had to keep going back over the same thing... How and where to pass. How the hell do you get into group2 if you cant remember the 3 places you can pass, and to which side to point someone by on!!!! And whats up with these guys in Solo2 (Solo in Group2) I had a guy in my final session come up on me as I was preparing a pass on another car at the end of the back straight, pass us both like we were standing still and I was at like 115-120 cresting the hill right befor the braking zone. He missed me by like 3-4 feet and if I was given the point by and pulled out he would have knocked the **** out of me. And I saw him but knew I was about to get the point by from the car in front of me and knew I could make my pass and he could get his on the front straight so I didn't point him by.

I know that with the weather conditions there were people way outside their comfort level, I admit I went off a few times because I gut checked and lifted, and that I simply didn't have the experience and the so called tools to be pushing as hard as I was in the conditions. So, I took it down a level or two and consintrated on a few key things in just a hand full of corners.

But come on black flag these guys that are not with the program or something. The guys passing when ever they want or the guys that cant get it together as to what side to pass on should be pulled off and talked too (Hell I was even talked to for going off). Now that being said I want to thank the entire NASA group who puts these events on. You guys are the greatest, thanx for hanging in the freezing *** cold so we can go play.

BUT, damn I couldn't get over that last guys pass....

[rant done]

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vbspec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But come on black flag these guys that are not with the program or something. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The corner workers can't always see if a point-by was given. Unless you report the bad behavior to an chief instructor (Dan U of Jeff C can take action if appropriate), there isn't much that can be done.

You are certainly correct that people should know what side to make passes. And instructors are in most of the cars, so it shouldn't need repeated in class.

Also, if you do have concerns, you might want to send a note to Dan U, Jeff C, or Chris C. They've always responded to any questions or concerns I've had.

 

hey mike, which guy where you talking about. i got passed by the guy in the dark colored mustang. i can't remember if it was gray or green, but i remember the cheezy altezza tail lights heh. the last session he passed me on the inside of turn 14. i gave one guy the point by on the straight, then in the brake zone for 14, this other guy just keeps on coming to the side of me. at that point, the safety guy comes out in me, and i just give him the point by (at like marker 1) and stay to the outside and hope he didn't he me. at least he gave me a wave for letting him by, heh.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You are certainly correct that people should know what side to make passes. And instructors are in most of the cars, so it shouldn't need repeated in class.

Also, if you do have concerns, you might want to send a note to Dan U, Jeff C, or Chris C. They've always responded to any questions or concerns I've had.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I did speek with Dan after my last session when I was turning in my evaluation. I told him the number on the car and the color and he and another instructor looked at each other as this was not the first time this was mentioned. Also you are right that the instructors in the car should be correcting the driver when they are point someone by on the wrong side.

Anyway I just needed to get that off my chest as the big blow by happened in my last session on the next to the last lap.

 

Nah the guy that blasted me was in the #77 white car. I assume it was a Mustang but I was focused on backing down out, and getting ready for rollercoasted and making sure the car infront of me saw he (#77) was passing him too.

 

HPDE 2 can be like this. There are always guys in fast cars who meet the min requirements of the second group, but really are not all that good, but don't know it because their cars are so fast. I find that the problem people are in higher powered cars like Vetts, Mustangs, Camaros, Evos.

They get the "red mist" or tunnel vision and do stupid stuff and seems to me like they don't know they are dangerous. The last HPDE I went to there was one kid in an EVO who was just crazy and had to be talked to repeatedly, but honestly did not think he was the problem!!

 

I did hear lots of complaints over the weekend about the passing situation in HPDE2. I'm seriously questioning this "HPDE2 Solo" thing, as it seems a lot of the drivers doing this bad passing business were registered as such. I also know for sure that Dan was informed repeatedly, and it didn't seem to help anything. Good job for you guys that were aware enough to keep it together while they were being idiots though An idea for the future, in-car video would possibly be more convincing to the higher ups about how much of a tool any particular driver is being.

 

Enforcing the rules on passing is a shared responsibility.

It is the responsibility of the event organizers to review the passing rules during the drivers meeting at the start of the day.

It is the responsibility of the drivers to attend the drivers meeting and to obey the rules that were reviewed there.

It is the responsibility of the in-car instructors (if present) to remind the driver of the rules and to prevent violations from occurring; it is the responsibility of the driver to obey his instructor.

It is the responsibility of the corner workers to observe violations of the rules, to black flag the drivers responsible, and to report them via radio to the grid.

It is the responsibility of the event organizers to make sure that the corner workers understand the rules.

It is the responsibility of those working the grid (usually the event organizers, but sometimes part of the track's corner worker organization) to discuss the violations with the drivers in a way that makes them understand the violation and ensures that there will be no recurrence (normal for a first offense) and to apply sanctions to the driver (loss of track time and/or expulsion) for a repeat offense.

At least two of these responsibilities (and possibly more) were not properly executed.

I've been to some events where individuals did not obey the rules, but it was handled properly (black flagging etc). I've also been to some events where individuals did not obey the rules but nobody cared. (For example, I saw someone take a "hot lap" after passing the checkered flag, blowing by the entire field without any signal.) To me, this is one major difference between a safe event and an unsafe event. It's not that no one ever does anything wrong; mistakes by individuals are almost inevitable. It's how they are handled that prevents them from continuing to happen.

 

Depending on where it happened on the back straight, the corner worker at station 12 (driver's left at end of straight) or 14 (driver's right just before Rollercoaster) may not have been able to see where the pass was initiated.

A good suggestion would be to pit when the improper pass happens, tell pitout what happened, and then return to the track. Pitout will tell control what was reported and it will be noted in the log. That way, it's in the event record should others complain or should a corner report the same type behavior at another turn.

Corner workers will usually not hesitate to report unsafe behavior, whether in HPDE or a race group. If the offending driver needs to speak to pitout, the chief instructor, or the race director for additional guidance, then it will usually happen. This applies to late/dangerous passes, passes under yellow or driving too hot when EV is present in a corner station.


Modified by GreenFlag at 10:13 PM 2/21/2006

 

Man, last time I was driving in Group 2, it was like navigating through a parking lot.

Bunch of soccer moms in rental cars.

 

If someone is driving like a jackass (as in dangerous or marginal) by all means go to the chief instructor and let them know. They can then put the word out over the worker net to watch that particular car for marginal behavior. The chief instructor can also talk to the driver and let them know that improper behavior means black flag and a LONG conversation about it which equals less track time. As chief instructor (not a lot of times) I have booted my own student out of the event for driving like a jackass after signing off on them (they drove proper when I was in the car).

Barry H.

 

Truth be told, bits of jackassery happen in every DE group with every club I've been with. Half of Group 3 this past weekend didn't know it was passing anywhere with a point in either direction. I don't know why, it's only written a bunch of times on the website in the rules, and mentioned n-billion times in the classroom. I got divebombed when I gave a PIT-IN signal, a lot of other people were complaining about not being able to deal with the pass-on-both sides deal. God forbid you should have to have to drive on all of the track at some point of the weekend...

People still don't pointby "slow" cars even when they have been on their butt for a lap etc. but look at it this way... you're already getting plenty of situational awareness exercise. Get used to reading your mirrors, peripheral vision, nose (smell for coolant/gas/fried brakes). Realize that if you smell fried brakes and pass someone immediately thereafter, they may be headed for your bumper the next turn. Sometimes you have to listen for SOMEONE ELSE'S squealing locked tire and take evasive action to keep them from becoming your backseat driver. Been there, done that.

 

that sux, i had a lota fun. it was my first time there and ya i remember all the passing signs(not that dam hard) also zones. I have a ? you have to get signed off to move into the next group? they didnt mention ne thing about it.

 

try running1... all i had were the turbo guys taking off infront of me on straighst and slowing me down on turns..

 

^lol i know what u mean, also can u say mustang

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GreenFlag &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A good suggestion would be to pit when the improper pass happens, tell pitout what happened, and then return to the track. Pitout will tell control what was reported and it will be noted in the log. That way, it's in the event record should others complain or should a corner report the same type behavior at another turn.[/i]</TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly. Generally we will then ask the corner workers to pay specific attention to the offending driver or just go ahead and black flag him and bring him to the tower to chat. But...unless someone says something, we don't know anything is wrong and we can't fix it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vbspec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">[rant]</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't understand why people can't don't follow the HPDE rules.

Please continue to report the behavior in question, and keep your eyes in your mirrors!

I've spent enough laps behind the same car to get pretty quickly annoyed at it. If I see someone anywhere near my mirrors, I point first, ask questions later. Sometimes I pass them the next lap, sometimes we both sit in the same long train, sometimes I just eat dust.

I love the passing anywhere with HPDE3. It just makes sitting in a train of cars feel worse.

Ah well, it's not always like that.
Chris

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WRXRacer111 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
People still don't pointby "slow" cars even when they have been on their butt for a lap etc. but look at it this way... you're already getting plenty of situational awareness exercise. Get used to reading your mirrors, peripheral vision, nose (smell for coolant/gas/fried brakes). Realize that if you smell fried brakes and pass someone immediately thereafter, they may be headed for your bumper the next turn. Sometimes you have to listen for SOMEONE ELSE'S squealing locked tire and take evasive action to keep them from becoming your backseat driver. Been there, done that. </TD></TR></TABLE>


THIS SHOULD BE QUOTED for all people on track!!!!!!

 

Wait a minute... Solo in Group 2?
WTF?

Uh......................
Nevermind.

 

That does confuse me a bit. Instructors can sign off students to run solo when they feel this is in their best interests. However, I have seen people driving like @$$ when they are solo in group 2, and others who drive well. I don't know if this is a case of students requesting sign-off when they aren't *really* ready for it, or if instructors are misreading their skill level and signing them off before maybe they are ready. My group 2 instructors gave me a pretty thorough discussion about driving solo, had me work off-line corner entries, simulated corner passes etc. to learn how to hold a line BEFORE signing me off to drive solo in 2 and suggest that I move up to 3.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by maxQ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Man, last time I was driving in Group 2, it was like navigating through a parking lot.

Bunch of soccer moms in rental cars.



</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not this weekend Andy, Big powered cars on race rubber.

I was told by a non-official that the reason for the large number of Solo drivers in the group was that Group3 was full. We had guys that had completed comp school on friday that were checked off in our group.

 

racecontrol, you've gotta change the location in your profile to say "Road Atlanta" since you've moved away from VIR.

 

I hate to tell you guys, and some of you already know...you have to pay a lot of dues in the HPDE system. If you are a reasonably good driver, it is very easy to become frustrated in the lower groups. There are huge variations in both machinery and talent out there with you guys. There are also lots of egos...the worst thing you can have in the DE environment if you ask me.

It is really important to keep the right attitude to keep from getting frustrated. When you are frustrated, your driving suffers and you also become much more prone to mistakes. It is also VERY important to communicate with all the folks running the event. If you see something that is not right on the track or someone is driving like a jackass, they *should* be noticed by the workers and contol. YOU still need to voice your concerns to the head instructor or officials. Like it or not YOU are the redundancy plan for things that are not caught out on track. If nobody points out that a certain individual is not plying by the rules and they only get caught once...well they will likely keep on with the same behavior. If more than person complains about them, action should be taken. If that does not happen, then you should consider running with another group (club). For your own sake.

All I can tell you guys is that it will get better as you come up through the ranks. However, you can (and will) run into problems almost anywhere you go. Unfortuantley it is the nature of the beast. Some weekends are good and some are not so good...just the way it is.

If it makes you feel any better, the jackassery does not stop even if you make it to the instructor group. It has been known to happen on occasion. Vetts and M3s just don't like getting rolled by Civics...

HTH

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by racecontrol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Exactly. Generally we will then ask the corner workers to pay specific attention to the offending driver or just go ahead and black flag him and bring him to the tower to chat. But...unless someone says something, we don't know anything is wrong and we can't fix it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I will back Mark up on this one. Pit in and tell the pit marshall, it will only cost you a few seconds, plus you get some room away from the offender. The chief instructor is not on the race net and really cannot communicate the problem in a timely manner. I know we have black flagged drivers and I know we have made the problem clear to the Chief instructor in the past. Help us help you guys out.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I don't understand why people can't don't follow the HPDE rules.

Please continue to report the behavior in question, and keep your eyes in your mirrors!

I've spent enough laps behind the same car to get pretty quickly annoyed at it. If I see someone anywhere near my mirrors, I point first, ask questions later. Sometimes I pass them the next lap, sometimes we both sit in the same long train, sometimes I just eat dust.

I love the passing anywhere with HPDE3. It just makes sitting in a train of cars feel worse.

Ah well, it's not always like that.
Chris
</TD></TR></TABLE>
One thing the HPDE'rs forget a lot is that they can pit in for room on the track. simply pit in, and show the "room" hand signal to the pit out marshall, and back out you go... there is no need to be stuck in a train the whole time. Remember, there is probably going to be someone much slower than you AND someone much faster. Sooner or later they meet and there is no avoiding that.