I saw this on another forum. Some highlights:

Seatback braces + FIA seat = good

Harness + no rollbar = good

Cotton under race suit = bad

Alot more:

http://www.justracing.com/semi...p?t=5


Modified by Another Drew at 11:46 PM 2/17/2006

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Another Drew &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I saw this on another forum. Some highlights:

Seatback braces + FIA seat = good
</TD></TR></TABLE>


thats a pretty miss-leading statement. It is not a typical "back brace", and not what NASA or SCCA will accept as a "back brace".


the article is interesting.

 

Great read. Thanks for the post.

Those Lajoie seats seem bitchin.

http://www.joieofseating.net/

 

From the transcript.... Joe speaking about harness use without a rollbar...

joemarko: Rollovers are with such as sytem is most effective. The greatest cause of serious injury in a rollover is not being crushed by the roof but
joemarko: by you falling down on the roof at the end the incident or your body parts coming out of the window be it your head or hands and arms.
joemarko: There are very few injurys cause by roof collapse.

I'm glad an expert has finally spoke up about this. I think this is one of the bigger myths spread by the whole car forum phenomenon. It seems like I read one post a week on various car forums where somebody is warning somebody else not to use a harness if they do not have a rollbar or cage.

I've emailed back and forth with Joe on this topic before and I'm glad his opinions have made it to the internet. Previously you didn't have many experts speaking out about this.

 

yes, you can be hurt by flailing body parts or "falling out" of your 3pt belt after a rollover, but I don't believe that means that it is less safe than being in a harness in the same incident. The reason that people are not injured more often being crushed by the roof in a rollover is, IMO, because they are not in a position to be crushed by the roof. This assesment meantions nothing of the relative inability of a driver in a 4,5,or 6 poitn harness to not be in a position to be crushed by the roof of the car, when it rolls.

I've seen multiple rollover accidents where the roof of the car ended up occupying the same space a diver, or passenger's head would have been to belive this argument.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Brett@SoloRacer.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">From the transcript.... Joe speaking about harness use without a rollbar...

joemarko: Rollovers are with such as sytem is most effective. The greatest cause of serious injury in a rollover is not being crushed by the roof but
joemarko: by you falling down on the roof at the end the incident or your body parts coming out of the window be it your head or hands and arms.
joemarko: There are very few injurys cause by roof collapse.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have always thought it was silly to run without a roll bar because it gives you a solid mounting point for the harness straps, and a mounting point that allows the shoulder staps to be perpendicular to your spine, not at a spine crushing angle (like when mounted to the rear floor).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MightyMouseTech &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have always thought it was silly to run without a roll bar because it gives you a solid mounting point for the harness straps, and a mounting point that allows the shoulder staps to be perpendicular to your spine, not at a spine crushing angle (like when mounted to the rear floor).</TD></TR></TABLE>

For most people that just do the occasional autocross and HPDE in their street car, rollbars aren't real practical. Without the rollbar, I think proper harness installation is the key. Later in the article Joe says...

joemarko: Installing and or wearing belts inproperly. Never install belts in a stock seat with the sub strap going aroung the front of the seat. You will submarine and you will have perminent family planning

I see this a lot even in cars with rollbars. The drivers have belts installed with the shoulder belts attached to rollbar crossbrace, but then they just run the sub belt over the front of their factory (or aftermarket) seat.

 

Good read, thanks for the link.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Brett@SoloRacer.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I see this a lot even in cars with rollbars. The drivers have belts installed with the shoulder belts attached to rollbar crossbrace, but then they just run the sub belt over the front of their factory (or aftermarket) seat. </TD></TR></TABLE>

*shrug*

Grumpy told me to run the sub belt out the front. 5-pt harness and OEM seat.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1022200

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Safir &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yes, you can be hurt by flailing body parts or "falling out" of your 3pt belt after a rollover, but I don't believe that means that it is less safe than being in a harness in the same incident. The reason that people are not injured more often being crushed by the roof in a rollover is, IMO, because they are not in a position to be crushed by the roof. This assesment meantions nothing of the relative inability of a driver in a 4,5,or 6 poitn harness to not be in a position to be crushed by the roof of the car, when it rolls.

I've seen multiple rollover accidents where the roof of the car ended up occupying the same space a diver, or passenger's head would have been to belive this argument.</TD></TR></TABLE>
exactally, i dont see anywhere he said that its safe to run without one. sure the majority of injuries are from flailing body parts, but in that rare instance where the car lands on the roof you need all the downward/inward movment you can get

wheres Drew and the picture of the 3 series that lost about 8 inches of roof and both the driver and instructor walked away.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Brett@SoloRacer.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
joemarko: Rollovers are with such as sytem is most effective. The greatest cause of serious injury in a rollover is not being crushed by the roof but
joemarko: by you falling down on the roof at the end the incident or your body parts coming out of the window be it your head or hands and arms.
joemarko: There are very few injurys cause by roof collapse.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I really don't agree with this. It's not as cut and dry when talking about this. For autoX, sure, it's no problem. When you get to high speed tracks, it really depends on the car because different cars do better in rollovers.
As a general rule, I like telling people it's not a great idea to use harness systems without rollover protection.
I have seen more than a few cars "especially" at willow that were just HPDE days that ended in a pretty bad roll over.
The one that comes to mind is a 02 mustang! It was almost brand new, and the driver had an instructor in the car with him. He exited T2 a little early, put 2 wheels in the dirt, and cranked the wheel. Went to the inside and flipped. The cars roof was totally crushed right down to the doors. If they had been wearing harnesses, they would not have had to go to the hospital because they would not have made it. I guess they were both ok, but spent a day in the hospital.

I'm sure some of you socal people remember that one. It was years ago though.

 

This is totally true though. I have been saying the for sometime now! No one tends to believe me though!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
joemarko: The fiberglass shell seats can be compromised in serious rear impacts and a good - large - seat back brace is a good investment. It does not need to be bolted to the seat but should rest against it with a large coverage area just below the shoulder opening and down 6 or 8 inches across the full back</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Another Drew &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Harness + no rollbar = good
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've been saying this for the longest time...

You got more to worried if you are not strapped tightly on your seat in a rollover situation. You don't want to be bouncing around inside the car when the rollover happen. If someone tells me they can slide from their seat in a rollover situation to help them when the roof collapse, they haven't experience it themselves. It happens so quick and violently, there is no time to react.

In any accident, there is always a chance of a rollover. However, the car is usually design to have their strongest point on the roof, just behind your head. thus protecting you best when you are strapped tightly on your seat. Most modern car seats are also close to bucket style with bolster support (not bench), thus making it harder to slide to sides, and designed to hug you in place, and the seat belts are designed to do that as well.

For street use, I would not recommend roll cage/bar. It can cause more damage than help you in most situation. The bars usually sits inches from your head and can impact your head when you hit a bump or minor crash that otherwise would not hurt you.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andrie Hartanto &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You got more to worried if you are not strapped tightly on your seat in a rollover situation. You don't want to be bouncing around inside the car when the rollover happen. If someone tells me they can slide from their seat in a rollover situation to help them when the roof collapse, they haven't experience it themselves. It happens so quick and violently, there is no time to react.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The problem is that a modern automobile's safety systems are designed as a package, to work together. As soon as you change any part of the system with which the car was designed, then you have to be sure you've thought things through completely and correctly, and that you're considering the entire safety package, not just one or two items.

Seat squabs are designed to <u>break</u> in a rollover. It's not that you have to think about moving around inside a car with a collapsing roof. Why do you think new cars don't come with harnesses in the first place?

In a violent rollover, with standard belts, you at least stand a chance of being pushed over as the roof collapses. With harnesses, your chance of ending up with a broken neck is greatly enhanced and it's just plain stupidity to risk it.

There's <u>so</u> much to think about once you start driving in advanced and instructor groups, and when you start racing.

One thing is going to lead to another. Complete cage, braced FIA seats, removed airbags, good harnesses...it all has to come together as a package or you're running the risk of making the car more unsafe instead of safer.

Just because harnesses hold you in to turn better lap times does not mean that you're automatically safer in a violent crash.

We're not going to censor the information off of which you're working, because the guy's entitled to his opinion. However, our line and the NASA line is that you really should consider the whole safety package as an integral unit, and not add harnesses without other features.

In fact, I think I'd definitely add a roll bar before I added harnesses, if I could only do one thing. What you said about hitting your head in a crash on the street...that's well taken, but if I had to pick one or the other, I'd pick that one.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Brett@SoloRacer.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">From the transcript.... Joe speaking about harness use without a rollbar...

joemarko: Rollovers are with such as sytem is most effective. The greatest cause of serious injury in a rollover is not being crushed by the roof but
joemarko: by you falling down on the roof at the end the incident or your body parts coming out of the window be it your head or hands and arms.
joemarko: There are very few injurys cause by roof collapse.

I'm glad an expert has finally spoke up about this. I think this is one of the bigger myths spread by the whole car forum phenomenon. It seems like I read one post a week on various car forums where somebody is warning somebody else not to use a harness if they do not have a rollbar or cage.

I've emailed back and forth with Joe on this topic before and I'm glad his opinions have made it to the internet. Previously you didn't have many experts speaking out about this. </TD></TR></TABLE>

It may be great for an expert to speak out on this, but this non-expert has personally SEEN with his own eyeballs two DE cars with completely crushed roofs.

 

Read the article, interesting stuff.

What the heck does he want us to wear under the suit? Go commando under nomex longjohns? Itchy....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
We're not going to censor the information off of which you're working, because the guy's entitled to his opinion. However, our line and the NASA line is that you really should consider the whole safety package as an integral unit, and not add harnesses without other features.

In fact, I think I'd definitely add a roll bar before I added harnesses, if I could only do one thing. What you said about hitting your head in a crash on the street...that's well taken, but if I had to pick one or the other, I'd pick that one. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Schroth has designed a quick fit 4 point harness belt for use with a HANS device. From the looks of it, this belt is aimed at the driver who uses their street car for HPDE's and wants the added protection of a HANS device even though they might not have a rollbar or cage. So are you saying these people won't be able to use a HANS device because they can't use a harness belt without having a rollbar installed?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It may be great for an expert to speak out on this, but this non-expert has personally SEEN with his own eyeballs two DE cars with completely crushed roofs. </TD></TR></TABLE>
It's hard to get the images out of my head of those two BMW coupes with the roofs crushed down to the seat backs.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Brett@SoloRacer.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Schroth has designed a quick fit 4 point harness belt for use with a HANS device. From the looks of it, this belt is aimed at the driver who uses their street car for HPDE's and wants the added protection of a HANS device even though they might not have a rollbar or cage. So are you saying these people won't be able to use a HANS device because they can't use a harness belt without having a rollbar installed?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Brett, I know you know what you're talking about, and I know you're very careful. I'd like to hear more about this and hear your opinion about it.

My NASA safety expert is at VIR, and I'll see him at the enduro on Sunday. If you want to tell me exactly what it is, I'd be happy to ask about it, show him the thread, or whatever.

I think that part of the disagreement we seem to have all the time stems from your vast experience autocrossing, and my own tendencey to be at sprint races and HPDE. I've seen a car roll through Summit 10 at about 110, go off the end of Summit 1 at 145, and those two BMW coupes flattened their roofs going off Summit 3 at what looked like 90 - 100.

I know that safety's very high on your list of priorities, so I'd like to learn more about what you're talking about with this particular item and I'd be happy to show it to people.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Brett, I know you know what you're talking about, and I know you're very careful. I'd like to hear more about this and hear your opinion about it.

My NASA safety expert is at VIR, and I'll see him at the enduro on Sunday. If you want to tell me exactly what it is, I'd be happy to ask about it, show him the thread, or whatever.

I think that part of the disagreement we seem to have all the time stems from your vast experience autocrossing, and my own tendencey to be at sprint races and HPDE. I've seen a car roll through Summit 10 at about 110, go off the end of Summit 1 at 145, and those two BMW coupes flattened their roofs going off Summit 3 at what looked like 90 - 100.

I know that safety's very high on your list of priorities, so I'd like to learn more about what you're talking about with this particular item and I'd be happy to show it to people.</TD></TR></TABLE>

We are just a Schroth retailer and I recently caught wind of this new 4 pt Quick Fit belt designed for use with the HANS device. There is even mention of it in the latest issue of Grassroots Motorsports. I have yet to see the harness, but Joe Marko, the guy from the posting on JustRacing.com, is the guy to talk to about this new belt from Schroth. He works very closely with them and does a lot of lectures dealing with safety.

Sure the rollover/roof crushing thing is something that can happen, but I would think the more likely type of accident at an HPDE would be the type of accidents where a HANS device could be beneficial (frontal impacts, etc) . That being said, drivers would need some sort of harness belt installed to be able to use a HANS device, and since many people use their street cars/daily drivers for HPDE's they might not want to go installing rollbars and cages just to be able to use a harness and HANS device.

Just my $.02.


Modified by Brett@SoloRacer.com at 2:52 PM 2/18/2006

 

I will ask about it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Brett@SoloRacer.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Sure the rollover/roof crushing thing is something that can happen, but I would think the more likely type of accident at an HPDE would be the type of accidents where a HANS device could be beneficial (frontal impacts, etc) . That being said, drivers would need some sort of harness belt installed to be able to use a HANS device, and since many people use their street cars/daily drivers for HPDE's they might not want to go installing rollbars and cages just to be able to use a harness and HANS device.
</TD></TR></TABLE>


I would have to respectfully disagree with you on this one Brett. At least here in socal, most of the tracks that people attend for HPDEs don't fit what your saying. I would have to say that someone doing trackdays here in socal would be much more likely to be involved in a roll over than they would in a crash in which they hit an object. Most of the tracks here don't have much to hit (except cali speedway). You are much more likely to go over on your lid at Willow, Streets, Buttonwillow, and Thunder Hill than you are to hit a wall or car in an HPDE!

 

Harness without a rollbar? That's like shoes without socks!

 

Its not Just BMW's...




THSCC uses this picture as an example of why to not use a harness without proper rollover protection. Yes that is a C6.


Modified by Solracer at 6:37 PM 2/18/2006

 

My second limited season out in NASA HPDE's I witnessed a buddy rollover in my model of car. It was specifically evident that the rollbar & harnesses protected the driver and instructor from the roof collapsing any more than it already had, and them being tossed around any more than they were protected for. Right after seeing this instance I decided on the spot that I needed a rollbar, harnesses and shell before I drove on a track again.

 

What is the difference between a car landing on its' roof in a HPDE and a race?

Also how can someone say a harness without a bar is ok when you see a pic like this?



joemarko: by you falling down on the roof at the end the incident

You're not going to have to fall too far lol


Who is this guy again?


Modified by essex at 4:24 PM 2/18/2006

 

Should we be looking at ONLY the worse case senario (severe roofcrushing rollover)? What Joe Marko is saying that MANY injuries can be prevented or reduced by using a harness rather than a stock belt system. And that there's the added benefit of being able to use a H&N device. Personally, I bet I could find more than 50 incidents of collisions for every incident of a severe (roof crushable) rollover.

I have a question. In a severe rollover AT THE TIME THE ROOF IS COLLAPSING, is the occupant's chest and head still in the upright position where the torso is held firmly against the seatback just like a normal driving position? Or is the occupant's head and torso distorted someway and the belts stretched some such that the occupant is no longer firmly held tightly against the seatback?

I have no position on whether harnesses with no rollbar is bad or good as I'm no expert. I'm just throwing out that question because I believe it should be something we should think about.