i'm following someone who is slower then me. i get a good run off a corner and as we approach a 180* hairpin i dive inside under braking. i'm even with the other guy, maybe even slightly ahead of him at corner entry and there is no contact. because he's on the outside of the corner and going slower i get most of the way by him. however, his exit speed is better then mine due to the wider line and he starts to get a run on me. his front axle is just behind my rear axle as we start to track out. in an attempt to get back as much speed as i can and avoid loosing the position i just gained i track out like normal, essentially shutting the door on the pass-back attempt. i've been told that this is wrong.

the reason i disagree with this move being wrong is that since the guy is trying to pass me back HE is responsible for driving clean unless he is far enough up the side of my car that i can see him and he has track position. i think of it as the first pass is done and over with. the pass back is a seperate pass and similar to overtaking anyone the lead car isn't responsible for trailing car trying to tuck his nose in where there is no room and either running out of track or making contact. am i incorrect in my reasoning?

for a little more background, this is a common thing for me in the karting league i participate in. i do my best to keep my nose clean, but got a "talking to" for not leaving racing room for the guy i just passed. apparently i leave them no room on corner exit to stay beside me (seems counter productive to do that) and they end up driving into the wall to avoid spinning me out. i think the guy i just passed should swallow his pride and realize he's lost the position and check up to tuck back in behind me and try to pass me back when he has a better opening. i know that if i were attempting a pass and the guy i was trying to pass shut the door on me it is my responsibility to not hit him or the wall. i don't see why it should be different if i just passed someone and they are trying to regain their position. let me make it clear though that if they are along side me far enough that i can see the front of their kart (less then a 1/3rd of the way up the side of me) i leave them plenty of room to race. i only slam the door when i can't see them. i was unaware i even did this until i got my lecture.

anyway, i just wanted to get a feel for others opinions. obviously karting is a little different then full size cars, but the mechanics of a clean pass can't be too different, could they?

nate - autocrosser trying to learn how to pass


*edit* bolded and corrected critical part of this post. apologies for the typo in the original


Modified by solo-x at 10:46 AM 2/17/2006

 

I stopped reading when you said his front axle was just behind yours.
This means he still basically "owns" that piece of property and you need to give him racing room.

One little racing trick is to let someone try a late pass and pinch themselves off, especially if the next section of the track is fast or is a straight. You just hold the outside and take the position right back. He just overworked his tires and brakes for nothing.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I stopped reading when you said his front axle was just behind yours.
This means he still basically "owns" that piece of property and you need to give him racing room.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

front axle was just behind my rear axle. i missed that little very important bit of info. it was there in my head.... original post edited for clarification.

nate

 

Imagine how much faster your exit speed would have been if you'd taken the fast line thru the turn and got him at the turn exit. Some times it pays to wait...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I stopped reading when you said his front axle was just behind yours.
This means he still basically "owns" that piece of property and you need to give him racing room.</TD></TR></TABLE>

x2
If his front axle was just behind yours (front axle), he's still next to you and you haven't completely made a pass. As Scott said, you need to leave room.

$.02

~edit since your post was changed~
I'm not sure how it is in karting, but in my world, I'd think you made the pass, but I'm not sure you should've moved over just yet. I've been the pass'ie in a similar case and the passing car did the same to me. I thought he came over a bit early to block me and in the process almost took himself out. At the time it pissed me off, but the more I thought about it, I more I knew he had the pass. You just have to know where ends of your car are.



Modified by johng at 10:49 AM 2/17/2006

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johng &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">x2
If his front axle was just behind yours (front axle), he's still next to you and you haven't completely made a pass. As Scott said, you need to leave room.

$.02</TD></TR></TABLE>
Agreed. You haven't finished the pass. Don't run him off the road.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Imagine how much faster your exit speed would have been if you'd taken the fast line thru the turn and got him at the turn exit. Some times it pays to wait...</TD></TR></TABLE>

agreed. this particular part of the track is preceded by a decreasing radius 270* left hand sweeper. coming off that corner there is a slight right hand kink, then the 180* slow right hand hairpin. coming off that hairpin is a constant radius 270* left hand carousel, then another 180* slow right hand hairpin. the fast line into the hairpin puts you out about 3/4 of the track width. i got a run on the guy coming off the left hander. that was what i waited for. the initial pass was good and clean. track officials took issue with me tracking out all the way on exit. there was no contact on exit either, but the guy i just passed drove himself into the barrier to avoid hitting me. i edited the original post for clarity, but on track out the guys front axle was BEHIND my rear axle.

nate

 

ok guys, please go back and reread the first post. i was thinking "his front axle was behind my rear axle" but my fingers didn't type that. my apologies. i agree, his front axle even only a third of the way up the side of my kart and he owns that part of the track. do i still need to give him that part of the track if he doesn't even have his front axle even with my REAR axle?

nate - appreciates the feedback and apologizes for the typo

 

btw, this is KART racing. there is no "beating the guy off the corner". the karts just don't have enough get up and go. 90% of the passes are done on corner entry. the other 10% only if the other guy has a dog of a kart or botches the corner exit BAD. the league i'm in, only the back markers botch the corner exit that bad and are usually passed in the first corner, again, under braking.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok guys, please go back and reread the first post. i was thinking "his front axle was behind my rear axle" but my fingers didn't type that. my apologies. i agree, his front axle even only a third of the way up the side of my kart and he owns that part of the track. do i still need to give him that part of the track if he doesn't even have his front axle even with my REAR axle?

nate - appreciates the feedback and apologizes for the typo</TD></TR></TABLE>

Don't worry about the minute details, it doesn't change the answer. If you are not completely past him, you cannot track fully out - you must leave him room on the track. The line that you chose to pass him is to hold the inside for the ENTIRE turn. If he passes you back because he has more momentum on the outside, you just learned that dive bombing on that particular turn is not the way to pass.

Besides that, the laws of physics are not on your side in that situation, and if the other car doesn't back off, you easily could find yourself turned 90 degrees and aimed straight at whatever is on the outside of the turn. Oh, and don't expect a lot of sympathy after that happens....

 

what matt said.

 

Wow, you guys play nice.

In that situation, had I been on the outside, I would have been trying to judge whether or not I could spin you without T-boning you afterwards. If I thought I could repass you that way, than around you would go.

Had I been on the inside, my goal would have been to leave Just enough room that you couldn't stay along side of me while protecting myself from the spin by positioning myself so that if you tried it, we'd both get stuck.

Of course, your track officials would most likely beat you with wrenches for that.

Jeff, who has recently been pondering the merits of roundy round dirt racing in some $200 beater chevy...

Edit: I'm basing this off the assumption that the exit line takes you gradually closer to the wall of the left sweeper, hence the cutoff. Not even my evil *** would cut someone off like that in the middle of a straight.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Don't worry about the minute details, it doesn't change the answer. If you are not completely past him, you cannot track fully out - you must leave him room on the track. The line that you chose to pass him is to hold the inside for the ENTIRE turn. If he passes you back because he has more momentum on the outside, you just learned that dive bombing on that particular turn is not the way to pass.

Besides that, the laws of physics are not on your side in that situation, and if the other car doesn't back off, you easily could find yourself turned 90 degrees and aimed straight at whatever is on the outside of the turn. Oh, and don't expect a lot of sympathy after that happens....</TD></TR></TABLE>

at what point does one consider the pass complete? i'm not trying to be argumentative, i just would like a better rule. i applied the rules for the initial overtaking to define when the pass was complete. ie, the pass is "complete" once his front axle falls behind mine to compliment me not owning the inside of the corner until i'm more then halfway up the side of his kart. that would seem to be an incorrect approach. however, i don't see how i can tell if the guy has fallen behind farther then that.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chjkingme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wow, you guys play nice.

In that situation, had I been on the outside, I would have been trying to judge whether or not I could spin you without T-boning you afterwards. If I thought I could repass you that way, than around you would go.

Had I been on the inside, my goal would have been to leave Just enough room that you couldn't stay along side of me while protecting myself from the spin by positioning myself so that if you tried it, we'd both get stuck.

Of course, your track officials would most likely beat you with wrenches for that.

Jeff, who has recently been pondering the merits of roundy round dirt racing in some $200 beater chevy...</TD></TR></TABLE>

we have to play nice. spinning someone out is an automatic penalty. bumping someone intentionally so they go sideways is an automatic penalty. ie, back of the pack for you.

nate

 

I think in karting, the pass is considered complete when you are in a position to come out ahead in the event of contact. But again, I seem to run under slightly less restrictive contact rules than you.

 

Ouch.

We get penalized for flagrant or repeated contact, but the track we run is narrow enough that minor stuff happens pretty frequently.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">at what point does one consider the pass complete? i'm not trying to be argumentative, i just would like a better rule. i applied the rules for the initial overtaking to define when the pass was complete. ie, the pass is "complete" once his front axle falls behind mine to compliment me not owning the inside of the corner until i'm more then halfway up the side of his kart. that would seem to be an incorrect approach. however, i don't see how i can tell if the guy has fallen behind farther then that.

nate</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's something that's somewhat open to interpretation, but in my mind a pass is complete when your car is 100% in front of the other car. In your post, it sounds to me like you had only completed the pass 95% when you tried to move over to setup for the next corner. There's a difference between taking away someone's prospective line with position (i.e. corner entry) and taking away real estate that they already have. Hope that clears it up a little in your mind.

- Scott

 

It's funny, down at the kart track in Miami I used to frequent, you could generally tell how much experience people had by how they pass/let you pass. The people who had shifter kart/other full-bore w2w kart experience always left you racing room on exit, non-karters would drive into the side of you as soon as they got under you on entry or would shove you off on corner exit. Granted, they would rub you on corner entry if they were close to wiggle you out of the way, and if you pissed them off, punt you with surgical precision.

On one occasion I became a pawn between two friends after qualifying in 2nd place between them. Chasing the leader down the short straight before a hairpin, both of us braked for the turn when 3rd place decided to use me as his brake. He clocked me into the leader who got knocked out of the way. Understandably he got very pissed. This incited the wrath which could best be described as Latin Temperament (I mean no offense, but I think most people of said ethnicity know where I'm coming from) Needless to say, every corner thereafter I got a sharp shot to the bumper before he stopped retaliating and set up a clean pass. His buddy got a good laugh out of the post-race discussion where the winner came over to "discuss my passing tactics"

 

OK, lets say you've attempted this pass on me and my front axle is even with your rear. Am I required to now lift and "give" you the line exiting the corner?

Well, no. I'm not required to do this.

As a matter of fact, if I'm smart, and kind of mean (and I am) I'll stay right there. If I do, your exit is pinched off, and if you try to come over you just spun yourself off the front of my car and it didn't really cost me anything.
But a really nice guy might lift and let you have the line

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FlyZlow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It's something that's somewhat open to interpretation, but in my mind a pass is complete when your car is 100% in front of the other car. In your post, it sounds to me like you had only completed the pass 95% when you tried to move over to setup for the next corner. There's a difference between taking away someone's prospective line with position (i.e. corner entry) and taking away real estate that they already have. Hope that clears it up a little in your mind.

- Scott</TD></TR></TABLE>

that does put a different perspective on it. general consensus is that i'm in the wrong. i'll work on this in the future.

in case anyone needed a track map to better visualize things
the pass in question happened in the area under "Track 2". the tracks are combined in the league and we were running counter clockwise.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FlyZlow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It's something that's somewhat open to interpretation, but in my mind a pass is complete when your car is 100% in front of the other car. In your post, it sounds to me like you had only completed the pass 95% when you tried to move over to setup for the next corner. There's a difference between taking away someone's prospective line with position (i.e. corner entry) and taking away real estate that they already have. Hope that clears it up a little in your mind.

- Scott</TD></TR></TABLE>

It sort of depends on what part of the corner you are talking about. On corner entry, the general rule is if the other guy has a wheel up to your door (or I guess your hips in a kart) he has the corner and you have to leave him room. But that just means you can't drive down to the apex and take him off into the grass on the inside. You can still stay right there, and on exit the same rules apply. If you are still next to him, he can't track all the way out and run you off in the dirt.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If I do, your exit is pinched off, and if you try to come over you just spun yourself off the front of my car and it didn't really cost me anything.
</TD></TR></TABLE>


On a course with runoff room, it may not cost you anything. However, when there's a wall in the way, you have to make sure you can pull that off without getting stuck behind the wreck you just started.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You can still stay right there, and on exit the same rules apply. If you are still next to him, he can't track all the way out and run you off in the dirt.</TD></TR></TABLE>

that's where i get confused. is he still "next to me" if his front axle is BEHIND my rear axle?

your previous post mentioned that you don't have to give me that room on track out, even if i'm 95% ahead of you. that you could even be mean and hit me if i tried to take it. am i in the wrong to not leave YOU that room on exit considering you're not even up along side me enough to get your front axle past my rear axle? others think so, do you as well?

if i'm responsible for leaving you that room on exit, fine. i can do that. it will take me a little longer to finish the pass, but so be it. it will help me when i'm getting passed though, as i tend to check up, tuck in, and work on passing back when the percentages are more in my favor. if the other guy is supposed to leave me that room then i'll stop being generous there. i'm just trying to figure out which is right and acceptable and which is wrong.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It sort of depends on what part of the corner you are talking about. On corner entry, the general rule is if the other guy has a wheel up to your door (or I guess your hips in a kart) he has the corner and you have to leave him room. But that just means you can't drive down to the apex and take him off into the grass on the inside. You can still stay right there, and on exit the same rules apply. If you are still next to him, he can't track all the way out and run you off in the dirt.</TD></TR></TABLE>

True. I think we're saying the same thing. If someone has a wheel at your door, you can't come across him and take away the real estate that he has already established. You can, however, take whatever alternate line is going to get you through the turn fastest. If that takes away the passing car's prospective exit line (on track out), then it's perfectly legal because you were using the real estate you had already established. Is there anything different about what we're saying?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">that's where i get confused. is he still "next to me" if his front axle is BEHIND my rear axle?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

IMO, if you can't move over without hitting him, he's still next to you.