Lately, I've been thinking about making the transition to something slightly more powerful and the polar opposite of the R. Also, I would be like starting over in terms of the autocross learning curve. I've been looking for 2000-02 AP1's and figure one could be had for slightly more than what my '97 is worth (around 65k).

Can anyone shed light on their experience(s) with both in terms of track, autocross, power, insurance premiums, and security? I know several of you guys own both or have had a few of each in the past.

thanks!
Matt

 

for starters...
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1525969

 

My insurance went down from $100/mo to $75/mo with the S! I haven't auto-x'ed in the S yet, but the season's only a couple of months away. I had a blast in DS in the R, but looking forward to shredding up AS in the S.

But one regret was how much of a hassle it was to do everyday stuff in the S(hauling cargo, etc). I had to buy a second car because of the inpracticality of the S. If you've got a second car, I say do it. You can get into a 00-01 for pretty cheap, actually. I've seen them go for as low as $14k to $18k. First time I put the top down on a nice day and played F1 all the way home from work was fun. Ok, /end ghey ricer talk.

 

I have had both:

Track... The S2K is harder to drive and do well in. The ITR is more forgiving. If given equally talented drivers (good ones), the S2K will come out on top. Thats stock for stock though. The learning curve is very steep, it will take time but that makes it more fun.

Power... Definitely faster than an ITR, theres no doubt it that.

Insurance... I was paying 3300 a yr for my ITR. When I purchased the S2K, I was paying 1800 a yr for better coverage than the ITR. I bumped up liabilities and other things. This year, I am paying 1500 for my S2K

Theft... I do not worry anywhere close to as much as I did with my ITR. The only major thing to worry about is getting your top slashed and seats stolen. Other than that, theft issues are very very small but it is on the rise.

 

I loved my R...
I like the S...
I dont really regret getting rid of the R but I had one come into work yesterday, I had to take it for a test drive and instantly, I was back in love with it. I have not yet been able to track the S, so I cant say the S is better than the R. The R has alot more room in it and is alot more confortable to drive than the S. Just my .02.

Travis

 

Wait for next generation of S2K. Current one is getting old.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Utilitarian &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Lately, I've been thinking about making the transition to something slightly more powerful and the polar opposite of the R. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The S2K is neither of those.

Try a Mustang.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ross R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The S2K is neither of those.

Try a Mustang.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree.

The S2000 feels basically like a RWD ITR with quicker steering, IMHO. *

*Note: This is not to say that the S2000 is not faster than an ITR in stock form, and by no means a bash of the S2000.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Reid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I agree.

The S2000 feels basically like a RWD ITR with quicker steering, IMHO. *

*Note: This is not to say that the S2000 is not faster than an ITR in stock form, and by no means a bash of the S2000.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is the exact reason i want to upgrade, i already own a bunch of fwd's and now that i can afford a RWD Honda you better believe im down. The Stook being the ITR rwd equivelent and NEWER is the precise reason for my motivation to sell my car.

i got a track school im attending before i put the R up for sale tho. Then im sticking my bootie in a Stookie. I just hope its not as twichy as some ppl have said the s2k is at its limits.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Freeltec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I just hope its not as twichy as some ppl have said the s2k is at its limits.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The S2000 is neutral and responsive.

Those who complain that it's twitchy are not track drivers, IMHO.

 

The fact that you can pretty much even trade for a car that cost 2x more new is amazing...

I've been in a S2000 and its not really much if any faster then a stock Type-R. A modified Type-R should be able to take it. Also, the S2000, IMO cant be driven past 90% without a good risk of wrecking it, whereas the ITR can go past 100% with complete confidence.

Its not a bad choice, but its not much if any faster and its going to continue to depreciate twice as fast as the ITR.

 

There was an ITR owner in Phoenix who upgraded to the S2K. I haven't heard any complaints. It's a nice car. I don't know if I would ever buy one new; used is the way to go. Let it take that initial hit in value before you go and buy one.

 

I've owned both.

Insurance - both were around $90-100 mth (State Farm Raleigh)

Theft - I was paranoid about the ITR but never had a problem parking it anywhere in Raleigh. The S2K isn't a theft magnet (around here) since they are common place and the parts won't fit the EG/EK/DC chassis.

Fit - S2k ergonomics are great. Shifter is in the perfect position. At 6' I did have problems getting my wallet out of my pocket if seat belted in. The top restricted viewing stop lights so I had to sort of lean forward and **** my head to see them.
Car has a nasty blindspot. Footwell is narrow and doesn't really allow you to spread your legs and get comfy on longer trips. ITR, I had none of these issues.

Daily Driver - Driveability, no problems. Dropping the top gave the edge to the S2k. Forget carrying anything. If you take a trip in it, prepare to use soft luggage because you aren't carrying much in the trunk. Go shopping and need to carry stuff home, better have an empty seat. That was my biggest gripe, space.

Track - I did a lot of HPDE's in my ITR and loved it. Car was above my abilities and surely made me look better than I actually was. I did drive the S2K on a few touring laps on VIR (need a SCCA approved bar to actually do a school there) and the car felt amazing. The S2K handling always felt better than the ITR to me. IT was like a go-kart. Never autox it but I'm sure it would be fun.

Hope that helps.

 

Matt,

I guess you dropped the EVO idea ? Although I haven't raced the wife's S (yet), I have done enough moderately stupid stuff on the the street to get a good feel for it compared with the R. I agree with most of what's been said thus far - it really isn't that much faster than the R, but it sounds like it ! The steering is right-now quick, almost exactly like the EVO, unlike the R. Go into a turn under light-moderate power and it pushes ever-so-slightly, like the R. Snap off gas and it rotates like the R. I believe that what people mean by twitchy is that it reacts very quickly and sharply to changes in steering/gas/brakes. As such, you need to be smoother with inputs, but this is what makes it more of a race car. Unlike the R, you can of course induce rotation with the gas and do burnouts ! There is no perceptible body roll, unlike the R. Overall, I would say it is a slightly faster, RWD version of the R that changes direction much faster. It is a comfortable go-kart. Get one, but not as your only car.

Dave

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 97SpecR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I had one come into work yesterday, I had to take it for a test drive</TD></TR></TABLE>


My worst nightmare about taking mine in for service....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jond &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The fact that you can pretty much even trade for a car that cost 2x more new is amazing...</TD></TR></TABLE>

the S2000 cost $47-51k new??? Wow, amazing! I did not know that. Here I always thought they were in the low 30s MSRP and available at a few hundred over invoice. Silly me. (obviously first year sold over or at MSRP but that's true for ITRs also)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've been in a S2000 and its not really much if any faster then a stock Type-R. A modified Type-R should be able to take it. Also, the S2000, IMO cant be driven past 90% without a good risk of wrecking it, whereas the ITR can go past 100% with complete confidence. </TD></TR></TABLE>

AP2's are pretty consistent 13.9-14.0 cars, ITRs are low 14s, very few "wednesday" ITRs have hit the AP2's times (Brock's would be one). AP1's are about as fast in the 1/4 mile as ITRs. ITR's can be wrecked (like any other car) at 90% or less. You can drive an S2000 at 100% if you know what you are doing. Sure, a bad driver in an ITR looks like a good driver, but I can't blame the car for people wrecking them. The car is setup for a reason, and it's watered down yearly for a reason. Honda has to show that they take the safety of customers seriously, even if it's the customer's fault that they can't drive a sports car. And let's face it, many, many ITRs have been wrecked due to lift throttle oversteer. A GS-R is safer to drive. Understeer is safe. That doesn't make it good.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Its not a bad choice, but its not much if any faster and its going to continue to depreciate twice as fast as the ITR.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree on the depreciation. They will depreciate more, without a doubt. If honda ever brings over another ITR though.. you'll see DC2R resale drop like a rock.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by itrdave &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I believe that what people mean by twitchy is that it reacts very quickly and sharply to changes in steering/gas/brakes. As such, you need to be smoother with inputs, but this is what makes it more of a race car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well said.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dave-ROR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
AP2's are pretty consistent 13.9-14.0 cars, ITRs are low 14s, very few "wednesday" ITRs have hit the AP2's times (Brock's would be one). AP1's are about as fast in the 1/4 mile as ITRs. ITR's can be wrecked (like any other car) at 90% or less. You can drive an S2000 at 100% if you know what you are doing. Sure, a bad driver in an ITR looks like a good driver, but I can't blame the car for people wrecking them. The car is setup for a reason, and it's watered down yearly for a reason. Honda has to show that they take the safety of customers seriously, even if it's the customer's fault that they can't drive a sports car. And let's face it, many, many ITRs have been wrecked due to lift throttle oversteer. A GS-R is safer to drive. Understeer is safe. That doesn't make it good.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

People over at s2ki are hitting 13.6-13.9 @101-103 pretty consistantly with AP2's AND AP1's. I've only heard of one ITR hitting 14.3, which I haven't seen a time slip. In a straight line, the ITR will get beat, esp. up top.

But I think most of the people are talking about going around a track, which I also think the S2k is faster, but I don't know. From BMI, HI, and other videos, S2k's always hit faster times than the R. I'd still love to get another R, though. Just something about them....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dave-ROR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I agree on the depreciation. They will depreciate more, without a doubt. If honda ever brings over another ITR though.. you'll see DC2R resale drop like a rock.</TD></TR></TABLE>

meaning.. if another R was brought to the us... dc2r's will loose value?

 

Modded ITR &gt; Modded S2K.

I love S2Ks, and I will probably own one someday, but I'm not suggesting that it would do the same things an ITR does.

I have looped my ITR on-track a couple times in spectacular fashion, and I've saved some wild slides too. In an S2K, I wouldn't have been so lucky. When I was just getting started at Summit Point, there were two HT members tracking S2Ks in my run group. Within a few months both cars were totalled.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Reid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The S2000 is neutral and responsive.

Those who complain that it's twitchy are not track drivers, IMHO.</TD></TR></TABLE>

AP1s were twitchy as heck in general because of their alignment settings from the factory. Switching it to a "Euro-spec" alignment cures that nicely.

 

I've autoxed both (and spun both), and I love them both. But given good drivers, the S2k is a LOT faster autox car (stock class).

From the 2005 Atlanta natl tour:
Fastest S2000: 86.473 combined
Fastest ITR: 90.028 combined

Both were very good drivers having good days, and 3.5 seconds is an eternity in autox. There is a reason one is classed in AS and one is in DS.

I'd love to have an S2000 if it weren't so impractical as an only car.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ninetail &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

meaning.. if another R was brought to the us... dc2r's will loose value?</TD></TR></TABLE>

and i'd prolly drop mine and buy the new one

 

If I didn't have a daily driver, I wouldn't have bought an S2k.

True, S2k will initially depreciate it at a faster rate. But, they both start to level out at certain price points. It's not a huge depreciation like buying a GM, so it's not that big of a deal to me.

One gripe about the S2K... Honda's 6-speed transmission on AP1 & AP2 can be faulty, depending on the batch you get. 2nd gear is notoriously "funky" to get it in gear when the car is cold (for those selective batch.

It's a fun car, especially where winter is warm. I wouldn't want one way up north.

p.s. Get an '02-03 if you're set on buying an AP1. It comes with improvements. You can read all about it on http://www.s2ki.com

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Cosworth &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
True, S2k will initially depreciate it at a faster rate. But, they both start to level out at certain price points. It's not a huge depreciation like buying a GM, so it's not that big of a deal to me.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's the odd thing. I know when I'm buying a car, it's because I want it. Not because I'm looking at it as an investment (unless I win the lottery or something ... mmm GT500).

And I had the funky 2nd gear issue till I taught myself how to be a bit more deliberate with the shifting when it's cold. Used a Spoon Duracon **** to train myself and after a couple of months of that and learning how to shift "correctly", I don't have the issue anymore. Especially with a nice countersunk ****.

I agree with Cosworth. Spend a little more and get a '02-'03 for the enhancements and the glass rear window.