FRM question
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Featherfire »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">All H-series have FRM.</TD></TR></TABLE>
yep, and the f20b?........whatever the s2000 has in it.
yep, and the f20b?........whatever the s2000 has in it.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boarderx192 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sleeve it. Do it right the first time</TD></TR></TABLE>
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<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 98vtec »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if i could ever get this job, i plan on buying some mahle pistons. I hate managers.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Good! Cuz no one is being ballsy enough to try these out... I heard they did some more r&d and they work better with the FRM now, but until I see proof, I will continue to push sleeving. I guess it's that stubborn streak in me
Good! Cuz no one is being ballsy enough to try these out... I heard they did some more r&d and they work better with the FRM now, but until I see proof, I will continue to push sleeving. I guess it's that stubborn streak in me
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jd3jdm »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Good! Cuz no one is being ballsy enough to try these out... I heard they did some more r&d and they work better with the FRM now, but until I see proof, I will continue to push sleeving. I guess it's that stubborn streak in me
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Actually, many people have tried them out - and they all have had great success with them. I'm buying them for my setup though. Just find the mahle piston thread - its about 14 pages long......many many people have used them.
Good! Cuz no one is being ballsy enough to try these out... I heard they did some more r&d and they work better with the FRM now, but until I see proof, I will continue to push sleeving. I guess it's that stubborn streak in me
</TD></TR></TABLE>Actually, many people have tried them out - and they all have had great success with them. I'm buying them for my setup though. Just find the mahle piston thread - its about 14 pages long......many many people have used them.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TheKINGPin »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Actually, many people have tried them out - and they all have had great success with them. I'm buying them for my setup though. Just find the mahle piston thread - its about 14 pages long......many many people have used them. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Damn, I had no idea, I feel pretty blind now
, I'll go read now... Thanks for the info Kingpin
Damn, I had no idea, I feel pretty blind now
, I'll go read now... Thanks for the info Kingpin
theres a write up on the mahle pistons in honda tuning magazine. The issue thats on the shelf now with the accord i believe on the cover. Its gunna be a 2 parts write up but its worth the 10 min read.
I learned that you had to go to a special machine shop to to work on aluminum b/c it has different processes. Most of you knew that but hey you learn something new every day.
I learned that you had to go to a special machine shop to to work on aluminum b/c it has different processes. Most of you knew that but hey you learn something new every day.
Yeah many people have tried them with success, but how many people have put more than 30K on them? I have heard that they work, but how reliable are they. Until I see the reliability of the Mahle's I would sleeve as well. So to save me money someone please say that they have put some miles on them because then I would consider using them.
Ill chime in and say that Im gonna try them only to "take one for the team". The block is at the shop getting cleaned and honed, and once I get some more cash Im gonna buy em and try them out. Worst case is they dont work, and by then Ill prolly be buildin my block I replaced as a back up. Sure I could sleeve and not worry, but Im the kinda person who like to try new things and it sucks to loose out and blow money, but such is life. Hopefullt by april as the snow is melting it'll all be together..
i cannot speak for the honda specific mahle pistons, but as for other applications....Mahle is possibly one of the oldest piston manufacturers in existence. they have made quality pistons for volkswagens for decades, as well as other applications.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mozzandherb »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah many people have tried them with success, but how many people have put more than 30K on them? I have heard that they work, but how reliable are they. Until I see the reliability of the Mahle's I would sleeve as well. So to save me money someone please say that they have put some miles on them because then I would consider using them.</TD></TR></TABLE>
There are people who have put about 12k on them so far - but understand that not many people are using them right now - so its hard to say how long they've got on them. Realize that most people using the mahles have boosted engines; meaning that the engine life will most likely be shorter. It all depends on the application and tune. Personally, I wouldn't run more than 15psi on those - i'd get my block sleeved, and run some other pistons. I'm going to end up running 8-9psi on the street, and about 12-14psi racing. So, its not that much stress on the pistons. The real question is - how much can the cylinders hold?.......
There are people who have put about 12k on them so far - but understand that not many people are using them right now - so its hard to say how long they've got on them. Realize that most people using the mahles have boosted engines; meaning that the engine life will most likely be shorter. It all depends on the application and tune. Personally, I wouldn't run more than 15psi on those - i'd get my block sleeved, and run some other pistons. I'm going to end up running 8-9psi on the street, and about 12-14psi racing. So, its not that much stress on the pistons. The real question is - how much can the cylinders hold?.......
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by v4lu3s »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">f2oc=frm
h22=frm
h23=frm
nsx engines (c30/32)=frm
f20b=iron as far as i know
and if anyone says nikasil ill tell them that we ar not talking about snowmobile engines.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes!
h22=frm
h23=frm
nsx engines (c30/32)=frm
f20b=iron as far as i know
and if anyone says nikasil ill tell them that we ar not talking about snowmobile engines.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes!
i found the article guys:
Originally Posted by Tim Kelly of Honda Tuning Magazine
BORED TO BE WILD
FOR YEARS MANY BELIEVED HONDA'S ODDBALL H22 BLOCK HAD LIMITED BUILD POTENTIAL BECAUSE OF ITS UNIQUE CYLINDER DESIGN, BUT NOT IT'S POSSIBLE TO SAFELY OVER-BORE THE PRELUDE CASTING WITHOUT USING AFTERMARKET SLEEVES. SRD SHOWS HOW IT'S DONE USING MAHLE'S GOLD SERIES PISTONS, SLUGS ENGINEERED FOR THE H22'S SPECIAL HOLES.
The H22 is Honda's "just had to be different" block. Unlike its other castings, the 2.2-liter doesn't have steel sleeves pressed into an aluminum block. Instead the H22 is entirely aluminum, with no sleeves at all. That's great for weight savings, and the aluminum cylinder walls transfer combustion heat more effectively than steel liners (which may be why early H22s are closed deck). The downside is the distinctive bore design is bad for dropping in any aftermarket pistons.
If you H22 has a problem like a scored cylinder wall, or you're not getting good compression and leakdown, then traditionally, your next step would be to sleeve it or trash it. That's because you couldn't just do a conventional 0.0020-inch overbore and drop in new forged pistons like you could on a B-series engine.
Specifically, the problem is that aluminum pistons don't function well in an aluminum bore. Without a special coating, like thestock pistons and sleeves have, the components will encounter different expansion rates. At their worst, the thermal problems can result in a seized engine. Go through this and your H22 could be finished.
But Honda has a little trick up their sleeve. There are actually OEM 0.25mm overbore pistons available, so the block many thought couldn't be bored out can indeed be opened up some. Converted to American measurements, 0.25mm over is really small, 0.0098 inches, quite a bit smaller htan the 0.0020 mentioned previously. If your H22 has only minor cylinder wall problems, the pistons could be the answer that will save your wallet.
To that end, the German piston company Mahle, which makes OEM and racing pistons - including a good percentage of Formula 1's pistons - now has a drop-in stock and 0.25mm overbore forged piston for the H22. Available in low, stock and high-compression versions, the slugs may be the ultimate answer to a piston refresh for an H22.
The stock Honda pistons aren't forged, which means they can't tolerate much abuse. It's not uncommon to see stock H22 pistons pitted from detonation, 50hp nitrous shots, and bolt-on turbo kits. An inexpensive cast OEM piston just isn't made for that. But the Mahle Gold Series notony have a unique coating that makes them entirely compatible with the H22's aluminum/carbon matrix bore, the three compression versions available make the Mahle's ideal for any high-performance application.
Once you get the pistons, the next challenge is finding a machine shop that can bore an aluminum block. Porsche 911s have the same style all-aluminum piston bores (and surprise, they also have factory Mahle forged pistons), so theoretically, a shop that has experience with those should be able to get the job done. It's a completely different process, one that requires additional tools and materials, so make sure the shop understands what it's doing and that it stands behind its work.
To see just how easy this piston swap is, we ordered up a set of stock bore, high-compression Mahle Gold Series H22 pistons for an upcoming project (the non-Gold Series pistons are for sleeved blocks and are not recommended for a stock casting). We quickly took off the head and oil pan, ready to push in new pistons without having to remove the block from the engine bay. Unfortunately, we found what a lot of H22 owners find - scored piston walls.
The stock diameter pistons would do, but we'd likely suffer leakdown problems, varying compressions, and oil consumption. A bit of measuring and it was decided a 0.25mm overbore would make everything like new. We hit back Mahle for a set of the oversized pistons. After a trip to SS Machine, in Mesa, and the H22 was ready for our main men in Arizona, Superior Racing Development (SRD), to put the engine back together.
When we were finished, wheel-horsepower was up by 10 and the air-fuel ratio was dangerously lean. Detonation could also be heard. An engine ECU designed for 10:1 compression running 11.5:1 compression is asking for trouble. We expected as much and were ready for it, but that's another issure for another time.
FOR YEARS MANY BELIEVED HONDA'S ODDBALL H22 BLOCK HAD LIMITED BUILD POTENTIAL BECAUSE OF ITS UNIQUE CYLINDER DESIGN, BUT NOT IT'S POSSIBLE TO SAFELY OVER-BORE THE PRELUDE CASTING WITHOUT USING AFTERMARKET SLEEVES. SRD SHOWS HOW IT'S DONE USING MAHLE'S GOLD SERIES PISTONS, SLUGS ENGINEERED FOR THE H22'S SPECIAL HOLES.
The H22 is Honda's "just had to be different" block. Unlike its other castings, the 2.2-liter doesn't have steel sleeves pressed into an aluminum block. Instead the H22 is entirely aluminum, with no sleeves at all. That's great for weight savings, and the aluminum cylinder walls transfer combustion heat more effectively than steel liners (which may be why early H22s are closed deck). The downside is the distinctive bore design is bad for dropping in any aftermarket pistons.
If you H22 has a problem like a scored cylinder wall, or you're not getting good compression and leakdown, then traditionally, your next step would be to sleeve it or trash it. That's because you couldn't just do a conventional 0.0020-inch overbore and drop in new forged pistons like you could on a B-series engine.
Specifically, the problem is that aluminum pistons don't function well in an aluminum bore. Without a special coating, like thestock pistons and sleeves have, the components will encounter different expansion rates. At their worst, the thermal problems can result in a seized engine. Go through this and your H22 could be finished.
But Honda has a little trick up their sleeve. There are actually OEM 0.25mm overbore pistons available, so the block many thought couldn't be bored out can indeed be opened up some. Converted to American measurements, 0.25mm over is really small, 0.0098 inches, quite a bit smaller htan the 0.0020 mentioned previously. If your H22 has only minor cylinder wall problems, the pistons could be the answer that will save your wallet.
To that end, the German piston company Mahle, which makes OEM and racing pistons - including a good percentage of Formula 1's pistons - now has a drop-in stock and 0.25mm overbore forged piston for the H22. Available in low, stock and high-compression versions, the slugs may be the ultimate answer to a piston refresh for an H22.
The stock Honda pistons aren't forged, which means they can't tolerate much abuse. It's not uncommon to see stock H22 pistons pitted from detonation, 50hp nitrous shots, and bolt-on turbo kits. An inexpensive cast OEM piston just isn't made for that. But the Mahle Gold Series notony have a unique coating that makes them entirely compatible with the H22's aluminum/carbon matrix bore, the three compression versions available make the Mahle's ideal for any high-performance application.
Once you get the pistons, the next challenge is finding a machine shop that can bore an aluminum block. Porsche 911s have the same style all-aluminum piston bores (and surprise, they also have factory Mahle forged pistons), so theoretically, a shop that has experience with those should be able to get the job done. It's a completely different process, one that requires additional tools and materials, so make sure the shop understands what it's doing and that it stands behind its work.
To see just how easy this piston swap is, we ordered up a set of stock bore, high-compression Mahle Gold Series H22 pistons for an upcoming project (the non-Gold Series pistons are for sleeved blocks and are not recommended for a stock casting). We quickly took off the head and oil pan, ready to push in new pistons without having to remove the block from the engine bay. Unfortunately, we found what a lot of H22 owners find - scored piston walls.
The stock diameter pistons would do, but we'd likely suffer leakdown problems, varying compressions, and oil consumption. A bit of measuring and it was decided a 0.25mm overbore would make everything like new. We hit back Mahle for a set of the oversized pistons. After a trip to SS Machine, in Mesa, and the H22 was ready for our main men in Arizona, Superior Racing Development (SRD), to put the engine back together.
When we were finished, wheel-horsepower was up by 10 and the air-fuel ratio was dangerously lean. Detonation could also be heard. An engine ECU designed for 10:1 compression running 11.5:1 compression is asking for trouble. We expected as much and were ready for it, but that's another issure for another time.
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