What does "true coilovers" mean?
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Joined: Mar 2004
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From: Colorado Springs, co, USA
What does "true coilovers" mean?
I was looking at upgrading the suspension on my lude and saw that the Tein SS coilovers are quite a bit more expensive than a shocks/springs combo. What are the advantages?
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Making Eggs, NC
Re: What does "true coilovers" mean? (Broken Devil)
i guess this could possibly be searched..but...im in the giving mood so i will bestow upon you friend
true coilovers like those teins or anything else of that nature is a full replacement for you strut and springs..they are valved to work in harmony and nice models have adjustable preload compression and rebound settings in addition to the height adjustment which is characteristic of every coilover out there....
coilovers can also be just a simple spring sleeve and new spring for each corner that you install on your stock struts in place of your stock springs...although they are realitively inexpensive, they are only really good for just show or really stiffening up your suspension....but your stock struts arent designed to work with those stiffer and shorter springs and therefore your ride quality=suck
or you can buy the coilover springs and sleeves and a performance stock replacement strut like a koni or kyb and you can install them on your car.... the strut may not work 100% in harmony with your coilover like a set of "true coilovers" would but you still have many adjustment options and cheaper rebuilding/revalving options than with "true coilovers"...alot of people do this instead of buying "true coilovers" as it is usually less expensive and you can get a very high level of performance out of them-it will be more than enough for track and very spirited street driving- just dont tell da man or he'll be at my door for that thought
i dont really care for the term "true coilovers" even though i have a set....it makes the idea of buying your own coilovers and shocks sound chinsy.. I would have bought a set of koni yellows with some ground control coilovers had I not gotten a good deal on my coilovers...search around some more and ask others in the suspension and racing forums what theyve used and like...good luck
true coilovers like those teins or anything else of that nature is a full replacement for you strut and springs..they are valved to work in harmony and nice models have adjustable preload compression and rebound settings in addition to the height adjustment which is characteristic of every coilover out there....
coilovers can also be just a simple spring sleeve and new spring for each corner that you install on your stock struts in place of your stock springs...although they are realitively inexpensive, they are only really good for just show or really stiffening up your suspension....but your stock struts arent designed to work with those stiffer and shorter springs and therefore your ride quality=suck
or you can buy the coilover springs and sleeves and a performance stock replacement strut like a koni or kyb and you can install them on your car.... the strut may not work 100% in harmony with your coilover like a set of "true coilovers" would but you still have many adjustment options and cheaper rebuilding/revalving options than with "true coilovers"...alot of people do this instead of buying "true coilovers" as it is usually less expensive and you can get a very high level of performance out of them-it will be more than enough for track and very spirited street driving- just dont tell da man or he'll be at my door for that thought
i dont really care for the term "true coilovers" even though i have a set....it makes the idea of buying your own coilovers and shocks sound chinsy.. I would have bought a set of koni yellows with some ground control coilovers had I not gotten a good deal on my coilovers...search around some more and ask others in the suspension and racing forums what theyve used and like...good luck
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Joined: Jun 2003
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From: Off THE 60, Between THE 605 and THE 57
the term "true coilover" is a misnomer. the prelude suspension by default is a "true coilover". A coilover suspension is any suspension in which the spring assembly is placed over the shocks.
however, the term has come to mean a packaged shock and adj ht. spring combination from the same company. "true coilovers" describe something like the tein ss, buddy club suspension, and the jic flt-a2. this benefits the makers of these suspension systems because the term also implies that these are superior to a spring/shock or coilover sleeve/shock combination, when really there is no inherent advantage to having the parts all anodized the same color.
when it comes to the basics of a coilover suspension, there are a few things at play that determine the comfort, performance, and reliability of the system:
1. spring rate vs. shock valving: the spring creates a harmonic oscillation that would continue for a very long time if the oscillations were not damped. the shocks, or dampers, are what provide this damping force and keep the spring from oscillating continuously after it is compressed (and uncompresses). When you ride in a car that is "bouncy" it is because the oscillations are being underdamped by the shocks--this happens because the dampers are incapable of creating sufficient damping force to damp the oscillations of the spring. So, when you get a coilover sleeve like the Ground Control or Skunk2 kit and use them with stock shocks, and then experience a bouncy ride, this is the primary reason. The stock shocks are valved to handle the stock spring rates (iirc 200#/in front and 150#/in rear), whereas the abovementioned coilover kits have much higher spring rates (GC's OTS rate is 380/280).
2. shock travel: with our suspension geometry, shock travel is reduced when you lower the car (and keep the same shock mounting points in the shock tower). this gives the shock less travel to do the same amount of work, which makes it harder for the shock to accomplish its damping. furthermore, when the shock reaches its "bottom" the bumpstops (which prevent the shock from damaging itself when you bottom out) create an infinite wheel rate and corresponding thud. A well put together suspension has a shock that can handle the lessened travel without a) prematurely wearing the interior components of the shock b) bottoming out, c) can physically handle the demands of damping the springs.
3. adjustment, slow damping, & fast damping: A lot of coilover kits mention 36-level adjustibility, or 4, 12, 16, 24, 100000000 level adjustibility. These adjustments are supposed to change the shock valving to make the shock stiffer or softer. However, what is important to note is that the # of adjustable levels isn't a true measure of how much adjustment the shocks really offer. After all, you can cut a pie into an infinite number of slices, theoretically--you're not going to have more pie if you cut it into more pieces. What's really important about adjustability is the size of the pie, so to speak. This can only really be known after using a shock dyno to measure the range of adjustability of the shock. so whether it has 100 clicks or 4, the shock dyno is going to tell you whether it's truly a wide adjustment range or not. For the most part, most JDM suspension pieces have very limited ranges of adjustment, even though they may have XX levels of adjustment.
this leads to a discussion on fast damping and slow damping. Slow damping is the characteristics of the damping force when the oscillations are lower speed, like when the suspension compresses in a corner. When you stiffen the shock settings on a damper that actually affects changes on its slow damping characteristics, it prevents body roll or otherwise stiffens the suspension during performance driving. Fast damping has more to do with the comfort level of the suspension, as it comes into play when you're driving over rough roads or other irregularities. Stiff fast damping characteristics of a damper are what "rattle your teeth" in a suspension.
--------------------
that being said, when choosing a suspension, there are a few guidelines and questions you should ask yourself.
first ask: "What am i going to be doing with the car?" depending on your answer, you'll have a general idea of what you want to do with spring rates, ht. adjustability, and price range.
if you are just going to be driving on the street and occasionally beating on the car, you're going to be using relatively soft spring rates and a damper that suits this purpose. Most aftermarket shocks and lowering springs suit this purpose. As far as what works best, it further depends on how low you're going to go, how rough your roads are, wheel setup, etc etc.
if you're going to be a/x'ing or hpde'ing your daily driven car, you'll want stiffer spring rates and a damper that can handle them. My car was on 450/550 rate springs with koni yellows, and was decently comfy on the street, and performed pretty well on the track. There's obv a tradeoff between comfort and performance, but if you're serious about a/x or de'ing, you won't mind. your equipment choices become much more limited at this point, since not many shocks can handle a 550 # spring and will be overwhelmed by that stiff a spring. Koni yellows can damp up to 600#/in of spring (though not ideally), toki illuminas and agx's crap out around the mid 400# range. A suspension like the tein flex (which comes with ~550/350 spring rates) is a little more appropriate than the tein SS (which comes with 450/225) though the FLEX system spring rates are shitty for performance driving and needs stiffer rear springs to aid in rotation.
if you're building a purpose-built race car, you'll find your spring rates will be much, much higher than the other rates mentioned. My race car build is calling for 750/1000 spring rates and there are only a few shocks that can handle these rates. I'm either going with a revalved koni yellow setup, or the koni 3011's. the only jdm setups i know that can deal with rates like these are the endless s6, the tein R_ series, and the mugen n1 dampers.
there's so much more to it, but it's a start...
however, the term has come to mean a packaged shock and adj ht. spring combination from the same company. "true coilovers" describe something like the tein ss, buddy club suspension, and the jic flt-a2. this benefits the makers of these suspension systems because the term also implies that these are superior to a spring/shock or coilover sleeve/shock combination, when really there is no inherent advantage to having the parts all anodized the same color.
when it comes to the basics of a coilover suspension, there are a few things at play that determine the comfort, performance, and reliability of the system:
1. spring rate vs. shock valving: the spring creates a harmonic oscillation that would continue for a very long time if the oscillations were not damped. the shocks, or dampers, are what provide this damping force and keep the spring from oscillating continuously after it is compressed (and uncompresses). When you ride in a car that is "bouncy" it is because the oscillations are being underdamped by the shocks--this happens because the dampers are incapable of creating sufficient damping force to damp the oscillations of the spring. So, when you get a coilover sleeve like the Ground Control or Skunk2 kit and use them with stock shocks, and then experience a bouncy ride, this is the primary reason. The stock shocks are valved to handle the stock spring rates (iirc 200#/in front and 150#/in rear), whereas the abovementioned coilover kits have much higher spring rates (GC's OTS rate is 380/280).
2. shock travel: with our suspension geometry, shock travel is reduced when you lower the car (and keep the same shock mounting points in the shock tower). this gives the shock less travel to do the same amount of work, which makes it harder for the shock to accomplish its damping. furthermore, when the shock reaches its "bottom" the bumpstops (which prevent the shock from damaging itself when you bottom out) create an infinite wheel rate and corresponding thud. A well put together suspension has a shock that can handle the lessened travel without a) prematurely wearing the interior components of the shock b) bottoming out, c) can physically handle the demands of damping the springs.
3. adjustment, slow damping, & fast damping: A lot of coilover kits mention 36-level adjustibility, or 4, 12, 16, 24, 100000000 level adjustibility. These adjustments are supposed to change the shock valving to make the shock stiffer or softer. However, what is important to note is that the # of adjustable levels isn't a true measure of how much adjustment the shocks really offer. After all, you can cut a pie into an infinite number of slices, theoretically--you're not going to have more pie if you cut it into more pieces. What's really important about adjustability is the size of the pie, so to speak. This can only really be known after using a shock dyno to measure the range of adjustability of the shock. so whether it has 100 clicks or 4, the shock dyno is going to tell you whether it's truly a wide adjustment range or not. For the most part, most JDM suspension pieces have very limited ranges of adjustment, even though they may have XX levels of adjustment.
this leads to a discussion on fast damping and slow damping. Slow damping is the characteristics of the damping force when the oscillations are lower speed, like when the suspension compresses in a corner. When you stiffen the shock settings on a damper that actually affects changes on its slow damping characteristics, it prevents body roll or otherwise stiffens the suspension during performance driving. Fast damping has more to do with the comfort level of the suspension, as it comes into play when you're driving over rough roads or other irregularities. Stiff fast damping characteristics of a damper are what "rattle your teeth" in a suspension.
--------------------
that being said, when choosing a suspension, there are a few guidelines and questions you should ask yourself.
first ask: "What am i going to be doing with the car?" depending on your answer, you'll have a general idea of what you want to do with spring rates, ht. adjustability, and price range.
if you are just going to be driving on the street and occasionally beating on the car, you're going to be using relatively soft spring rates and a damper that suits this purpose. Most aftermarket shocks and lowering springs suit this purpose. As far as what works best, it further depends on how low you're going to go, how rough your roads are, wheel setup, etc etc.
if you're going to be a/x'ing or hpde'ing your daily driven car, you'll want stiffer spring rates and a damper that can handle them. My car was on 450/550 rate springs with koni yellows, and was decently comfy on the street, and performed pretty well on the track. There's obv a tradeoff between comfort and performance, but if you're serious about a/x or de'ing, you won't mind. your equipment choices become much more limited at this point, since not many shocks can handle a 550 # spring and will be overwhelmed by that stiff a spring. Koni yellows can damp up to 600#/in of spring (though not ideally), toki illuminas and agx's crap out around the mid 400# range. A suspension like the tein flex (which comes with ~550/350 spring rates) is a little more appropriate than the tein SS (which comes with 450/225) though the FLEX system spring rates are shitty for performance driving and needs stiffer rear springs to aid in rotation.
if you're building a purpose-built race car, you'll find your spring rates will be much, much higher than the other rates mentioned. My race car build is calling for 750/1000 spring rates and there are only a few shocks that can handle these rates. I'm either going with a revalved koni yellow setup, or the koni 3011's. the only jdm setups i know that can deal with rates like these are the endless s6, the tein R_ series, and the mugen n1 dampers.
there's so much more to it, but it's a start...
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 233
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From: Atlanta, GA
Re: (bad-monkey)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bad-monkey »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This benefits the makers of these suspension systems because the term also implies that these are superior to a spring/shock or coilover sleeve/shock combination, when really there is no inherent advantage to having the parts all anodized the same color.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Now that's good internet humor.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Now that's good internet humor.
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