oil squirters
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From: los banos, ca
oil squirters
has anyone done a comparison of a high hp setup with oil squirters vs one without...is engine life changed?
wondering this because i have a b18c block and b18b i can have sleeved...and doesnt really matter to me which i use...only difference would be the oil squirters
wondering this because i have a b18c block and b18b i can have sleeved...and doesnt really matter to me which i use...only difference would be the oil squirters
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,915
Likes: 1
From: los banos, ca
Re: oil squirters (onepoint6i)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by onepoint6i »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">forged pistons=no need of oil squirters..</TD></TR></TABLE>
why? do the oil squirters hurt in anyway?
why? do the oil squirters hurt in anyway?
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Joined: Apr 2000
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From: Toronto, On, Canada
Re: oil squirters (2k.civic.si)
My reply to this topic on Team-Integra.net in Dec 2003
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Misconceptions About Oil Squirters
1. Function of oil squirters is to lubricate.
No, it's to cool the piston bottom and rod. If you keep the piston crown cooler, it does have an effect on burn efficiency for power as well.
The main reason to run an oil squirter from a design point of view, is to allow for a thinner piston crown. Thinner crowns saves on piston weight.
2. All oil squirters are the same.
No. B18C vs. B16A squirters have different heights/length affecting clearance issues. As any Mitsubishi Eclipse owner can tell you, the size of the squirter matters in terms of how much oil is delivered to other parts of the block as well, because their Eclipse gen.2 blocks had different oil squirters than the gen.1 blocks and may have caused some premature bearing wear issues from crankwalking with less oil being delivered at lower oil pressures. This is no small matter and it's both a clearance and delivery/oil pressure reduction issue.
3. Forged products don't require oil cooling as much compared to Cast products.
In low silicon forged applications this may be true but some pistons are hypereutectic meaning they are forged but have a higher (>12%, usually around 14%) silicon content. This is added to reduce noise at cold start up from lower piston to wall clearances since the hypereutectics don't need as much clearance with a lower heat expansion rate. Now we all know added silicon makes the piston more brittle and weaker. The strength of the piston's material depends on it's elastic properties (yield & fatigue strengths) in the temperature range that it sees. So a blanket statement like: just get forged and you don't need to worry about oil squirters is a bit imprecise. You need to ask what kind of application (it's not only how high an engine temp. gets but it's also for how long: drag racing vs. road racing) and what kind of forged piston.
4. It's definitely needed.
Not necessarily , from my experience and others depending on your intended use.
Originally posted by Endyn:
"If you plan to road race the engine, or run it to high rpm in the upper two gears (top speed racing), you need oil squirters. If you're doing hot street driving and only racing quarter miles, you don't need the squirters at all."
There's enough people with high end drag racing experience out there who can tell you that these are not needed. They are a PITA to install: It's not just a matter of tapping the oil galley on the block. you have to use spacers to get the proper clearances to clear the 89mm stroke crank counterweights and the piston skirts at the same time. They have to be aimed at the bottom of the piston. You add reciprocating assembly weight with the oil that is squirted to the rod. You lose oil pressure by adding these and therefore need to upgrade the oil pump to at least a VTEC oil pump to maintain oil pressure throughout the system.
If you're doing this, then you should know why you are doing this:
long extended romps to high temps (street use in hot climates where you do a lot of high rpm driving, extended FI use or road racing N/A use) and use of stock cast or hypereutectic forged pistons are legitimate reasons to make the effort for me. Longevity in these conditions may make it worth the effort IMHO. I suggest the B16 ones. Don't do it because you think it automatically confers protection from increased lubrication...remember it's to cool down the piston/rod.
I've seen hypereutectic forged marine diesel pistons which use an alternative approach to keeping the piston crown cool by adding an "oil catcher" to the bottom of the piston (looks like a shelf that literally catches the normally flung oil in blocks without squirters) instead of using these block squirters.
I suspect an oil cooler with an oil pump upgrade may be more cost effective for cooling purposes, if you're not extending the time you keep the engine temp. high. Use of molybdenum-coated rings and piston skirt coatings (including moly) may also transfer heat away from the piston more efficiently. An oil temp. gauge is helpful here just to keep track of things.
just my 2 cents on the subject but there may be other experiences out there.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Misconceptions About Oil Squirters
1. Function of oil squirters is to lubricate.
No, it's to cool the piston bottom and rod. If you keep the piston crown cooler, it does have an effect on burn efficiency for power as well.
The main reason to run an oil squirter from a design point of view, is to allow for a thinner piston crown. Thinner crowns saves on piston weight.
2. All oil squirters are the same.
No. B18C vs. B16A squirters have different heights/length affecting clearance issues. As any Mitsubishi Eclipse owner can tell you, the size of the squirter matters in terms of how much oil is delivered to other parts of the block as well, because their Eclipse gen.2 blocks had different oil squirters than the gen.1 blocks and may have caused some premature bearing wear issues from crankwalking with less oil being delivered at lower oil pressures. This is no small matter and it's both a clearance and delivery/oil pressure reduction issue.
3. Forged products don't require oil cooling as much compared to Cast products.
In low silicon forged applications this may be true but some pistons are hypereutectic meaning they are forged but have a higher (>12%, usually around 14%) silicon content. This is added to reduce noise at cold start up from lower piston to wall clearances since the hypereutectics don't need as much clearance with a lower heat expansion rate. Now we all know added silicon makes the piston more brittle and weaker. The strength of the piston's material depends on it's elastic properties (yield & fatigue strengths) in the temperature range that it sees. So a blanket statement like: just get forged and you don't need to worry about oil squirters is a bit imprecise. You need to ask what kind of application (it's not only how high an engine temp. gets but it's also for how long: drag racing vs. road racing) and what kind of forged piston.
4. It's definitely needed.
Not necessarily , from my experience and others depending on your intended use.
Originally posted by Endyn:
"If you plan to road race the engine, or run it to high rpm in the upper two gears (top speed racing), you need oil squirters. If you're doing hot street driving and only racing quarter miles, you don't need the squirters at all."
There's enough people with high end drag racing experience out there who can tell you that these are not needed. They are a PITA to install: It's not just a matter of tapping the oil galley on the block. you have to use spacers to get the proper clearances to clear the 89mm stroke crank counterweights and the piston skirts at the same time. They have to be aimed at the bottom of the piston. You add reciprocating assembly weight with the oil that is squirted to the rod. You lose oil pressure by adding these and therefore need to upgrade the oil pump to at least a VTEC oil pump to maintain oil pressure throughout the system.
If you're doing this, then you should know why you are doing this:
long extended romps to high temps (street use in hot climates where you do a lot of high rpm driving, extended FI use or road racing N/A use) and use of stock cast or hypereutectic forged pistons are legitimate reasons to make the effort for me. Longevity in these conditions may make it worth the effort IMHO. I suggest the B16 ones. Don't do it because you think it automatically confers protection from increased lubrication...remember it's to cool down the piston/rod.
I've seen hypereutectic forged marine diesel pistons which use an alternative approach to keeping the piston crown cool by adding an "oil catcher" to the bottom of the piston (looks like a shelf that literally catches the normally flung oil in blocks without squirters) instead of using these block squirters.
I suspect an oil cooler with an oil pump upgrade may be more cost effective for cooling purposes, if you're not extending the time you keep the engine temp. high. Use of molybdenum-coated rings and piston skirt coatings (including moly) may also transfer heat away from the piston more efficiently. An oil temp. gauge is helpful here just to keep track of things.
just my 2 cents on the subject but there may be other experiences out there.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
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