For as long as I have been on H-T this has always been a burning question of mine:

What makes a Type R such a great track car?

Before you say search, I am aware of all specs that the integra type R has over the lower model integras (gsr,gs,rs). However, for a $25,000 (*when new*) front-wheel drive caR to match well against many more expensive rwd and awd cars (i.e M3/WRX) is a great feat to overcome.

So what did Honda do right with this caR? What i am baffeled about is, and this is due to never having driven an R on the track; How it is possible to have less horsepower, a fwd layout, and still be able to take out cars that clearly beat out the R in specs?

This question is also in response to my friends over-hyped mr2 who says "Mid-engine" cars are the best for the track and that all Hondas are rice-burners who cant get traction and arnt meant for the track.

Hopefully seasoned trackers can chime in and clear this up for me.

 

wowzers. you can get them for a little over half of that price you posted.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by baonest &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">wowzers. you can get them for a little over half of that price you posted.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Edited

 

Have you driven one or been in one that was well driven on Track?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bbasso &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Have you driven one or been in one that was well driven on Track?</TD></TR></TABLE>
No thats why I am asking. Im not trying to come off as if I am challenging what the R can do on the track, I just honestly dont know and am intrigued. If I had the chance to ride in an R around the track, then maybe I would understand.

I knew this would be a hit or miss, but still had to try.

 

i have a b20 vtec LS with coilovers/strut bars. When the car was stock, it was my cousins until i bought it off him couple months ago after he fixed it up and moved on to a s2000. Im only 17 and i run it down at willowsprings CA. I seen type-r's there that can take some damn good turns. For its price, its really worth it.

EDIT: The whole point of me writting that above is that even though my car is fast on strait line, i have coilovers and strut bars and tires. I belive the type-r can still out handle me. Im still a new driver on the track so i dont know if that counts, but they sure can hang in with cars.

 

to be rough:

lightweight
short gearing
enduring brakes (due to lightweight)
reliability: NA &gt; FI
VTEC and redline: stays in powerband longer
.94G
more rotation than most FF cars
cheap maintainance and easy to mod.

Specs on paper means nothing, you have to drive it to understand. If you put Miata in the picture, it would be a hard thing saying which one is a better track car. Although the ITR should be faster in lap time than MX-5 given equal driver, but a good track car doesn't necessary have fast lap times.

M3 is a great track car too to it's weight distribution. Just abit too heavy, and I hate their gearbox.

WRX is super heavy on the track, road-feel sucks. Weight transition is not easy to manage. If heavily modded, turbo lag's gonna mess things up in turns. Brakes on WRX are very hard to overcome due to weight, even with bigger calipers and whatnots.

MR2 and other old FI cars (FD ahem), reliability is an issue. And MR cars, although supposedly to be more neutral for tracks but in reality, they are not for beginners. If both you and your friend start on the same day for track, you will hand his *** to him. And as for traction, he's talking out of his ***, track and drag strip launch are two separate things. If set up is not right, the MR2 can understeer like hell too.

Bottom line is, ITR is a great Beginner/Amateur track cars. Its limit is within reach to most ppl, while other cars, the learning curve will be alot longer and steeper.


my .02




Modified by nEoMuGen at 10:13 AM 12/14/2005

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by _HondAddicT_ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
No thats why I am asking. Im not trying to come off as if I am challenging what the R can do on the track, I just honestly dont know and am intrigued. If I had the chance to ride in an R around the track, then maybe I would understand.

I knew this would be a hit or miss, but still had to try.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you come down to Sebring on the 28th of Jan, I'll see what I can do to remedy that.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nEoMuGen &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">.94G </TD></TR></TABLE>

That sums it up well.
When the ITR was released, only 3 cars in the world handled better and all were around $100,000.

It depends on the track though. You need a track where you can carry speed. At VIR I was passing 350hp camaros that were all done up with rollcages and whatnot. At summitpoint I got passed by everyone it seemed...

Besise the handling, realize the ITR only weights 500lbs more then a lotus elise.... Name 1 car lighter then the ITR thats sold today(besise the elise). There arent any...

 

In stock form:


It's balanced, very well which makes it easy to drive. It's actually so easy that it makes tards like us actually look good and saves our asses sometimes

It came with an LSD, and super tires,

It's tossable,

for the most part it's neutral but can be coaxed to rotate,

Honda reliable,

Awesome brakes, they used larger brakes from their parts bin (Accord wagon parts) and combined them with a lighter car to supply awesome braking

VG stock gearing, slickest shifter I've ever driven

The redline when introduced was incredible. IIRC it was also the most HP per liter of any engine at the time except for an F1 engine. It just revs freely and keeps going up and up and up and suprisingly keeps making more and more power as the tach needle keeps reaching into the red. And it sounds awesome while doing all of this,

Cheap to maintain in comparison to many with the exception of say Domestics,

Easy to source parts for,

Aftermarket is fully developed and still strong,

It's also relatively cheap to track, and convenient since it's a hatch and you can pack and bring all your **** in the hatch and still have room to spare.


And it's funny you mention RWD and AWD and I'm sure hint at FI'd rally inspired cars, but it was Never meant to compete with these classes. Also funny how it still holds such a following almost a full 9 years after the R was introduced over here and a Full 12 years after the DC chassis itself was introduced.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jond &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That sums it up well.
When the ITR was released, only 3 cars in the world handled better and all were around $100,000.

It depends on the track though. You need a track where you can carry speed. At VIR I was passing 350hp camaros that were all done up with rollcages and whatnot. At summitpoint I got passed by everyone it seemed...

Besise the handling, realize the ITR only weights 500lbs more then a lotus elise.... Name 1 car lighter then the ITR thats sold today(besise the elise). There arent any...

</TD></TR></TABLE> Amen!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1GreyTeg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
VG stock gearing, slickest shifter I've ever driven

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I drive an RSX S daily, and only get behind the wheel of the R on occasion. I'm always amazed by how slick the gear box is, and how much better it is than the Type S.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by _HondAddicT_ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What makes a Type R such a great track car?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

There's not a simple answer.

It's just a very nice, balanced package, homologated for the purpose for which it achieved its fame. Nice motor, good power/weight ratio, everything feels good, it was designed for the driver to feel good about the car, and you can still get 25-30 miles per gallon when you're on that trip to the track.

In addition to being such a nice, balanced package there is a huge supply of proved aftermarket parts and support because of its racing heritage. For example, you really don't need to fuss and research if you want a suspension. It's a no brainer that the Spoon or Mugen N1 suspensions are a great thing to buy and both have a history of winning races.

There's also a built in safety factor in that it's a homologated front drive car. Any idiot (like this old man) can master the high performance techniques associated with a high HP front drive car. You might never be the fastest, but you'll be safe, if you keep your head about you.

Now that I think about it, I can only think of being off track three times in six years of owning the ITR.

1. Probably shouldn't count because I never lifted, but there was an early experience having to cut a straight line through the Uphill Esses at VIR. Never slowed down...it just became clear I was going too fast and I just had to take a slightly bumpy shortcut between the two turns.

2. My first attempt at trail braking didn't work out so well and it seemed evident that the best thing to do was to straighten the car out off the track and come back on.

3. Three seasons ago, I burned #3 piston and pulled off to avoid smoke bombing people coming through the Carousel at Summit Point.

I don't know how to explain it. Almost anything you do wrong can be fixed with this car.

Oh, I just remembered something that's always a great thing to do. There's an uphill section at Summit Main after the Carousel, on the way to Turn 8 and 9. In the rain you'll have a huge advantage over very high HP, high dollar cars because all you have to do is keep putting your foot down smoothly until you feel the car tell you that it's starting to switch traction control from left to right, and then you hold it.

It's easy to get the car to get its maximum traction in the slippery conditions because the car volunteers the information when it's had enough.

When you're in touch with the car this much, you'll rapidly come up on the bumpers of very expensive rear drive cars (and I'm talking Corvettes and Porsches here), and they'll panic and point you by before Turn 10.

Makes a very impressive show for the buckets, and will get you some compliments later when they seek you out in the paddock.

But the truth is...it's the car, not the driver.

 

how can i put this.......

never owned an R (YET) but simply put... its the common man's ferrari

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by d.n.d. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">its the common man's ferrari </TD></TR></TABLE>

Not even remotely.

A Z06 fills that bill.

The R is a suped up econobox.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jond &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Name 1 car lighter then the ITR thats sold today(besise the elise). There arent any...

</TD></TR></TABLE>

New Mazda Miata is ~2400lbs I think.

 

As others have said very well; it's just a nicely balanced package. It doesn't do any one thing great; it just does everything really good and it all adds up to very good lap times for a low hp FWD car.

Back before my car was fully track prepped, I had the interior partially gutted, had Koni yellows with 400F/500R springs and Kuhmo V700 tires. Weight with driver was under 2,600lbs. I could run all day long with well-driven stock E36 M3s that were also on R compound tires at VIR's long course. My 400+ lb weight advantage equalized the cars nicely .

I love the car's relaibility, and the quality & availaility of OEM replacement parts. There's huge selection of affordable aftermarket performance parts and wear items. Front brake rotors are $22!

The car is kinda like.... Michelle Pfeiffer. She's a little too skinny, her breasts are small, and her lips are funky....but put it all together in that black leather Cat Woman outfit and she owns your ***!




Modified by Track rat at 9:52 AM 12/14/2005

 

Allan, that last little bit is sig material.... and nicely put might I add.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dave_B &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you come down to Sebring on the 28th of Jan, I'll see what I can do to remedy that. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I said... <TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bbasso &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> well driven on Track?</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dave_B &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Allan, that last little bit is sig material.... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Done!

 

Rob, I was reffering to the original poster. he's in FL and if he wanted to join in and see what the car was like on a track he could join me and a few others for the Jan 28th Chin event at Sebring.

 

:love:

I was just messing around

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bbasso &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">:love:

I was just messing around </TD></TR></TABLE>

Joo up for another trip to FL fool?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jond &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That sums it up well.
When the ITR was released, only 3 cars in the world handled better and all were around $100,000.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Which 3 cars were they? With all the exotics aside(obviously), in '96, the M3, C5 ('97), RX-7, 993, 911, etc were all faster than the R.

 

My $0.02:
- excellent balance
- great brakes
- light weight
- very fast steering response
- excellent power plant

Downsides:
- torque steer
- rear suspension leads to instability under hard braking