at our annual club meeting last night i got talking to our local guy that does REM/microfinishing about the potential usefullness of putting my ring and pinion through the process in addition to a cryo treatment to try and solve some of the 1.6 SM's tendency to blow up diffs.

he said that the REM/microfinishing would help, but said i should be careful about the cryo treatment. he informed me that the NASCAR teams quit doing it, and he didn't know why, but there was probably a good reason.

i know there are some metalurgy guys looking around here that might have some pertinent information on this subject. informed and uninformed opinions and ideas welcome.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tnord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> he informed me that the NASCAR teams quit doing it, and he didn't know why, but there was probably a good reason.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yep. Nascar said they couldnt!

 

i'd like to see them prove that the process was used.

 

Cryo treating parts is actually very harmful...you've got to use tongs to immerse and extract the parts...but when you forget and just reach in the vat with your hand, and then you realize what you've done and then go to smack yourself in the forehead and knock yourself out...anyway, long story short: NASCAR banned the practice.

Scott, who isn't sure, but that's what I heard...

 

Its probably because certain grades of metal respond differently and finding the right chemical formula for a blended metal is incredibly hard... And if you get it wrong, you would make the part more brittle than it was before.

 

We are currently working with a top Metalurgist and testing some SRR Final drives that have been REM/ microfinished to try and extend thier life. Not that we have had any problems with the SRR Final Drives so far, but as a service to our customers. We have heard of a couple of catastrophic failures that we can't just blame on the parts.
Cryo treatment was to be another step in the process ... But after hearing the same thing about NASCAR, and now reading this post... I think we'll give the cryo treatment a miss.

Kiwi

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by KIWI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We are currently working with a top Metalurgist and testing some SRR Final drives that have been REM/ microfinished to try and extend thier life. Not that we have had any problems with the SRR Final Drives so far, but as a service to our customers. We have heard of a couple of catastrophic failures that we can't just blame on the parts.
Cryo treatment was to be another step in the process ... But after hearing the same thing about NASCAR, and now reading this post... I think we'll give the cryo treatment a miss.

Kiwi</TD></TR></TABLE>

If the material is spec'ed right, and QA is tight enough on the mill side then there really shouldn't be any need for cryo-treatment, from what I've been told.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If the material is spec'ed right, and QA is tight enough on the mill side then there really shouldn't be any need for cryo-treatment, from what I've been told.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

well when you're limited in the rules to parts that come from the OEM (with likely too-high tolerances), you're kinda up ****'s creek without a paddle. i'm just looking for a band-aid solution that can't be detected within the framework of the rules.

 

Keep in mind you were talking to a guy who's business is to do REM/micropolishing and who is either direct or semi-direct competiotion with cryo-treatment.

I don't know why the miata diffs blow up, and without finding or talking about the root cause it would be tough to find a solution. However, the fact that he didn't quote any tangible reasons why cryo-treatment might be a bad idea makes me feel that it might be all smoke and mirrors.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If the material is spec'ed right, and QA is tight enough on the mill side then there really shouldn't be any need for cryo-treatment, from what I've been told.

</TD></TR></TABLE>


Quite right....
However, If we in the racing industry went by everything we've been told...
Would the quality or strength of anything ever be inproved?
As I said, we are trying everything we can in the interest of our customers.

Kiwi

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Keep in mind you were talking to a guy who's business is to do REM/micropolishing and who is either direct or semi-direct competiotion with cryo-treatment.

I don't know why the miata diffs blow up, and without finding or talking about the root cause it would be tough to find a solution. However, the fact that he didn't quote any tangible reasons why cryo-treatment might be a bad idea makes me feel that it might be all smoke and mirrors.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I also would tend to agree with both of these statements.
I am concerned because I have heard from various sources that cryo treatment is bad... But no actual reasons why?

Kiwi

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Keep in mind you were talking to a guy who's business is to do REM/micropolishing and who is either direct or semi-direct competiotion with cryo-treatment.

I don't know why the miata diffs blow up, and without finding or talking about the root cause it would be tough to find a solution. However, the fact that he didn't quote any tangible reasons why cryo-treatment might be a bad idea makes me feel that it might be all smoke and mirrors.</TD></TR></TABLE>

trust me, he wasn't cautioning against cryo because he's in competition with them. he didn't even say not to do it, he just said be careful.

nobody knows why the miata diffs blow up. what i do know is that the fluid is cooking, the inside of that case can reach above 400 degrees, r/p teeth are breaking, bolts are backing out, and bearings are failing. i figured lowering the temp in there would be a good start.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tnord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

trust me, he wasn't cautioning against cryo because he's in competition with them. he didn't even say not to do it, he just said be careful.

nobody knows why the miata diffs blow up. what i do know is that the fluid is cooking, the inside of that case can reach above 400 degrees, r/p teeth are breaking, bolts are backing out, and bearings are failing. i figured lowering the temp in there would be a good start.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not to go OT...but...so Miata's have "problems"?

Scott, who has been looking over the fence and thought that grass looked so green over there...from now on I'm just gonna close me eyes!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tnord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

trust me, he wasn't cautioning against cryo because he's in competition with them. he didn't even say not to do it, he just said be careful.

nobody knows why the miata diffs blow up. what i do know is that the fluid is cooking, the inside of that case can reach above 400 degrees, r/p teeth are breaking, bolts are backing out, and bearings are failing. i figured lowering the temp in there would be a good start.</TD></TR></TABLE>

How would cryo-treating help any of those problems?

 

i don't know to much on the subject, but from the little you said it sound to me like the fluid in the diff gets way to hot breaks down and stops protecting, then you have parts failing.

Have you guys tried some high dollar fluid? What about changing the fluid after each race weekend?

Just suggestions to try and help the problem.

 

Maybe add a diff oil cooler?

 

1) we've talked about diff coolers, but right now they aren't legal, and some of the 1.8 guys are having a hissy fit about allowing them it, so that's not possible.

2) miata's don't really have any problems besides this one. unfortunately it's a $1500/a$$plosion problem.

3) cryo treating could potentially help if it hardens the r/p gear and keeps them from shredding teeth.

4) we have tried high-dollar fluid. mine was 90-140 Amsoil with friction modifier brand new before that weekend. we've also used $100/gallon stuff that's used in the 24hr LeMans race.

5) my r/p shredded without the fluid being cooked, and i'm certainly not the only one. but yes, cooking the fluid is a problem, but it's certainly not the ONLY problem.

 

400 deg. seems way too hot, i know most transmission experts trying to keep the tranny well below 225 im actually working on kit right now just for that.

Call tilton get a pump get a good core run some lines and do some good good testing

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not to go OT...but...so Miata's have "problems"?

Scott, who has been looking over the fence and thought that grass looked so green over there...from now on I'm just gonna close me eyes!</TD></TR></TABLE>Some do, some don't. If you buy a 1.8 with a factory Torsen, you eliminate the only weak point (besides the front hubs...and then there's the factory exhaust manifolds...and then there's...) yet to be uncovered. The sheer volume of cars being raced out there makes the problems look bigger than they are (especially on the internet where a vocal minority can be so darn convincing), but in the case of the 1.6 diff problem it's a really expensive one when it happens, and sometimes it happens without rhyme or reason. The other things that break on SM's are more like "you're racing a car with OEM parts never designed to do that" kind of thing, and there are workarounds for most of them.

Don't worry, the grass is still oh-so-green.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Casey@Burns &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">400 deg. seems way too hot, i know most transmission experts trying to keep the tranny well below 225 im actually working on kit right now just for that.

Call tilton get a pump get a good core run some lines and do some good good testing</TD></TR></TABLE>

as expressed before, it doesn't allow us to run coolers, circulating pumps, or anything of the sort. right now, we're stuck with what we've got.

 

so does anyone know any particular reason why cryo would be BAD?

we have been cryoing pretty much EVERYTHING (included entire dissassembled trannies, and blocks) and it we haven't had any problems...

 

Hmm.. I have not heard anything bad about cryoing parts. Some of the teams we work with at school are reporting getting twice the wear or more out of their rotors. At $20 per rotor for treatment it pays for itself. I would be interested in hearing any specific drawbacks with cryo treatment.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tnord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">local guy that does REM/microfinishing ... he said that the REM/microfinishing would help but said i should be careful about the cryo treatment</TD></TR></TABLE>

I asked a Toyota salesman if I should buy a Honda and he said no I should buy a Toyota..... I guess Honda's suck or something?

I guess like heat treating, it's possible to do it wrong and therefore make parts unreliable, but I can't imagine if it's done right how it could be a bad thing. At worst it's going to be the same as a non treated part.

 

Metallurgically speaking, harder is not necessarily better. Sure, if you're using the hardened part for a bearing or for a braking (friction) surface, then it might be better. Harder parts certainly wear better than unhardened parts but there are other issues involved. For example, a harder part is almost always more brittle. If the part has any significantly areas of stress concentration, then the brittleness will tend to result in lower fatigue life. I hate to say this, but with cryo or most things in life - caveat emptor - since there are very few free lunches being served.

 

I haven't found anyone reputable to do the cryotreating that is also cost effective on the same hand. I can't take the risk of a part failing in a customers trans and have it explode versus shred and cause way more damage....There has to be someone on this board who is more familiar with proper cryo treating techniques