JRSC on track question
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From: Burninating the peasants yo
JRSC on track question
Real quick question for you all, and yes, this was searched, just trying to get a more...updated opinion, as the last thread of any worth was back in '03. Figured you all might have a different perspective now. 
Anyway, onto the nonsense. This is for anyone that has actual experience with this, not anyone who "thinks" it'll be any one way. I'm kind of kicking around the idea of supercharging a B16 for HPDE use, as I'm getting a little tired of getting rolled by my little brother with his 250whp 240SX
What I'm wondering is, how does everyone like the supercharged powerband? I'm assuming it'll be relatively linear, as opposed to the more hyperbolic (?) powerband of a turbocharged deal. That linearity is exactly what I'm looking for, so I'm just looking to confirm that.
Anyway, onto the nonsense. This is for anyone that has actual experience with this, not anyone who "thinks" it'll be any one way. I'm kind of kicking around the idea of supercharging a B16 for HPDE use, as I'm getting a little tired of getting rolled by my little brother with his 250whp 240SX
What I'm wondering is, how does everyone like the supercharged powerband? I'm assuming it'll be relatively linear, as opposed to the more hyperbolic (?) powerband of a turbocharged deal. That linearity is exactly what I'm looking for, so I'm just looking to confirm that.
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From: Columbia, MO, USA
Re: JRSC on track question (sscguy)
It's pretty linear, just a B16's normal powerband plus 50 hp, basically. They're really nice and if you can find a good kit used it's a bargain. I would watch the cooling system.
<-former JRSC '00 Si owner.
<-former JRSC '00 Si owner.
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From: Columbia, MO, USA
Re: JRSC on track question (sscguy)
It is improved according to the dyno, but at part throttle in low rpm you really don't use much boost at all. I'd say it's better, but not better enough to call it torquey. Asking a 1.6 liter car to make lots of torque in the low rpm range is asking for a miracle.
I never found myself wishing for more torque in my Civic which could generate plenty of wheelspin in 1st even without the blower. Anywhere above 30 mph and you just select the correct gear and go, below that you're trying not to blow the tires off. Just like any other FWD dancing elephant.
I never found myself wishing for more torque in my Civic which could generate plenty of wheelspin in 1st even without the blower. Anywhere above 30 mph and you just select the correct gear and go, below that you're trying not to blow the tires off. Just like any other FWD dancing elephant.
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From: Between Willow, and Button Willow, CA, USA
Re: JRSC on track question (sscguy)
They work fine, but you need to pay special attention to the temp. I have driven many of them, and it is nice to have one. If all you are looking for is a bit more grunt to play with your brother, I would say it's a great idea. Probably cheaper than looking for it in the NA dept! 
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From: Mainland, USA
Re: JRSC on track question (prkiller)
You may want to give these guys a look if you end up going that route.
http://lhtperformance.net/
They add a water to air intercooler between the JRSC blower and the head.
http://lhtperformance.net/
They add a water to air intercooler between the JRSC blower and the head.
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From: Burninating the peasants yo
Re: JRSC on track question (jisu009)
The LHT unit is on my list of possible additions. Alcohol injection is another one, but I need to learn more about it. The temperature issue SHOULDN'T be a problem, with everything I have or have planned (Todd Reid's old Howe big-honkin'-radiator+oil cooler, either the LHT or injection). Thanks for the help all, I appreciate it
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From: Elkton, MD, 21921
Re: JRSC on track question (sscguy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The LHT unit is on my list of possible additions. Alcohol injection is another one, but I need to learn more about it. The temperature issue SHOULDN'T be a problem, with everything I have or have planned (Todd Reid's old Howe big-honkin'-radiator+oil cooler, either the LHT or injection). Thanks for the help all, I appreciate it </TD></TR></TABLE>
hi man!
gonna let that LS take a rest for a while and go for some forced induction VTEC, yo?
1. i am sure with the cooling system you are now using, temps should be no problem. when i had that rad/oilcooler system made for me, it was supposed to be able to cope with "up to 400 hp, prolonged, on a road course".
2. you should very very very definitely look into water or water/alky injection. i designed and built a water/alky injection system for my street EVO, and have been using it for the last 1.5 years. works flawlessly; allows more timing and boost, and keeps detonation at bay. in my opinion, for a turbocharged or supercharged car, it is a MUST for track use, especially on warm days. my EVO runs so much better with it, and i generally run a straight water or a small mix of methanol/water combo.... i run a very mild tune with mine (this is my only street car and i drive 20k+ miles per year with it), but if you want an aggressive tune, and want to run a high concentration of meth/water or pure meth, you can really see large power gains with zero or very low knock counts....
anyway, good luck with the project; i think it will be really fun on track!!!!
todd
</TD></TR></TABLE>hi man!
gonna let that LS take a rest for a while and go for some forced induction VTEC, yo?
1. i am sure with the cooling system you are now using, temps should be no problem. when i had that rad/oilcooler system made for me, it was supposed to be able to cope with "up to 400 hp, prolonged, on a road course".
2. you should very very very definitely look into water or water/alky injection. i designed and built a water/alky injection system for my street EVO, and have been using it for the last 1.5 years. works flawlessly; allows more timing and boost, and keeps detonation at bay. in my opinion, for a turbocharged or supercharged car, it is a MUST for track use, especially on warm days. my EVO runs so much better with it, and i generally run a straight water or a small mix of methanol/water combo.... i run a very mild tune with mine (this is my only street car and i drive 20k+ miles per year with it), but if you want an aggressive tune, and want to run a high concentration of meth/water or pure meth, you can really see large power gains with zero or very low knock counts....
anyway, good luck with the project; i think it will be really fun on track!!!!
todd
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From: Burninating the peasants yo
Re: JRSC on track question (Todd Reid)
Hey Todd! Yeah, the LS is getting a little tired. Burning more and more oil with each passing day, and not worth a rebuild...
For the injection system you're using, how much did it wind up costing you all together? I'm trying to keep this reasonably priced. Also, do you have any idea what kind of volume you use up on track? I'm trying to keep weight down (already gonna be an issue with all that extra hardware...*sigh*), so a 5-gallon tub of water or whatever wouldn't be too great. Also, did you get any before/after temps, or even just after temps?
And Corey, I knew you'd say something like that
For the injection system you're using, how much did it wind up costing you all together? I'm trying to keep this reasonably priced. Also, do you have any idea what kind of volume you use up on track? I'm trying to keep weight down (already gonna be an issue with all that extra hardware...*sigh*), so a 5-gallon tub of water or whatever wouldn't be too great. Also, did you get any before/after temps, or even just after temps?
And Corey, I knew you'd say something like that
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From: Elkton, MD, 21921
Re: JRSC on track question (sscguy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For the injection system you're using, how much did it wind up costing you all together? I'm trying to keep this reasonably priced. Also, do you have any idea what kind of volume you use up on track? I'm trying to keep weight down (already gonna be an issue with all that extra hardware...*sigh*), so a 5-gallon tub of water or whatever wouldn't be too great. Also, did you get any before/after temps, or even just after temps? </TD></TR></TABLE>
hi!
1. my sell price for the ReidSpeed kit is $300 shipped. i like to use an oversized, continuous duty pump, adjustable "spray on" pressure switch, and armored supply lines (to prevent abrasion problems). i supply an array of different sized nozzles, too.
2. i have the spray on my EVO set to activate at 12 psi (my max boost is at 20 psi with the EVO). on your car, you'd probably want the spray on at about 3-4 psi and up (due to the fact that you are starting with a high comp engine, vs the evo's low comp)....
3. in a 25 minute session at Pocono Raceway, the EVO would use about 2-2.5 quarts or so using the smallish jets injecting pure H2O; i was using the injection primarily to increase reliablility and reduce knock; i was not pushing the power envelope; if i wanted to, i'd run at least 50/50 meth/water, and lean out the gasoline AFR a bit and turn up the boost to 23-25 psi. doing something like that, one would want to watch for any knock events, but generally knock is severely reduced using the alky/water injection.
4. i have not put any thermocouples in the intake tract to record temps. i can tell you that i have run back-to-back sesssions, both with the injection on and with it off. with it off, on a 80+ degree day, you can feel the car get more and more sluggish as the laps go on (you can feel the timing being pulled out by the ecu when it senses knock). with the injection armed and activated, the car runs as strong on lap 10 as it did on lap 1.
5. i have run many many many gallons of water in the last 1.5 years with no ill effects whatsoever. if i had access to a bore-o-scope, i'd be really interested to peek in at the cylinders and see what the piston tops and cylinder head/valves look like. i would expect that they would be super clean (another positive side effect/benefit of water injection).
6. you want to make sure if you make your own setup, that it is reliable. if you tune your car to run right on the edge and make max power with the injection, and the injection fails, or runs out of fluid, you stand a pretty good chance of detonating and hurting your motor.... as i said, i don't keep mine tuned like this; i have an aggressive tune on the motor for use with 93 octane, and i use the injection on top of it to keep detonation to a bare minimum, even on the hottest days. the motor pulls very very strong and really smooth, too. one of the best mods i ever put on that car!
todd
EDIT: oh ya, forgot to add i built a system and installed it in a Diasio, powered by a 1300 Hyabusa, with a GT35 turbo kit. set it up to run 50/50 water/meth alky, and will hopefully be tuning it in the next month. car is running now without the injection at 8 lbs boost; guy wants to run it at 12-15 psi at track events.... 1100 lbs, 280+ whp, woo hoo, that should be F-U-N!
hi!
1. my sell price for the ReidSpeed kit is $300 shipped. i like to use an oversized, continuous duty pump, adjustable "spray on" pressure switch, and armored supply lines (to prevent abrasion problems). i supply an array of different sized nozzles, too.
2. i have the spray on my EVO set to activate at 12 psi (my max boost is at 20 psi with the EVO). on your car, you'd probably want the spray on at about 3-4 psi and up (due to the fact that you are starting with a high comp engine, vs the evo's low comp)....
3. in a 25 minute session at Pocono Raceway, the EVO would use about 2-2.5 quarts or so using the smallish jets injecting pure H2O; i was using the injection primarily to increase reliablility and reduce knock; i was not pushing the power envelope; if i wanted to, i'd run at least 50/50 meth/water, and lean out the gasoline AFR a bit and turn up the boost to 23-25 psi. doing something like that, one would want to watch for any knock events, but generally knock is severely reduced using the alky/water injection.
4. i have not put any thermocouples in the intake tract to record temps. i can tell you that i have run back-to-back sesssions, both with the injection on and with it off. with it off, on a 80+ degree day, you can feel the car get more and more sluggish as the laps go on (you can feel the timing being pulled out by the ecu when it senses knock). with the injection armed and activated, the car runs as strong on lap 10 as it did on lap 1.
5. i have run many many many gallons of water in the last 1.5 years with no ill effects whatsoever. if i had access to a bore-o-scope, i'd be really interested to peek in at the cylinders and see what the piston tops and cylinder head/valves look like. i would expect that they would be super clean (another positive side effect/benefit of water injection).
6. you want to make sure if you make your own setup, that it is reliable. if you tune your car to run right on the edge and make max power with the injection, and the injection fails, or runs out of fluid, you stand a pretty good chance of detonating and hurting your motor.... as i said, i don't keep mine tuned like this; i have an aggressive tune on the motor for use with 93 octane, and i use the injection on top of it to keep detonation to a bare minimum, even on the hottest days. the motor pulls very very strong and really smooth, too. one of the best mods i ever put on that car!
todd
EDIT: oh ya, forgot to add i built a system and installed it in a Diasio, powered by a 1300 Hyabusa, with a GT35 turbo kit. set it up to run 50/50 water/meth alky, and will hopefully be tuning it in the next month. car is running now without the injection at 8 lbs boost; guy wants to run it at 12-15 psi at track events.... 1100 lbs, 280+ whp, woo hoo, that should be F-U-N!
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From: Burninating the peasants yo
Re: JRSC on track question (Todd Reid)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd Reid »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1. my sell price for the ReidSpeed kit is $300 shipped. </TD></TR></TABLE>
K, I'll keep that in mind in figuring out the price for all this business.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd Reid »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">2. on your car, you'd probably want the spray on at about 3-4 psi and up (due to the fact that you are starting with a high comp engine, vs the evo's low comp)....
</TD></TR></TABLE>
What's the Evo's CR, just so I have a comparison?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd Reid »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">6. you want to make sure if you make your own setup, that it is reliable. if you tune your car to run right on the edge and make max power with the injection, and the injection fails, or runs out of fluid, you stand a pretty good chance of detonating and hurting your motor.... as i said, i don't keep mine tuned like this; i have an aggressive tune on the motor for use with 93 octane, and i use the injection on top of it to keep detonation to a bare minimum, even on the hottest days. the motor pulls very very strong and really smooth, too. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Reliability is absolutely priority number one. While I realize more power will be available, the point of any of these things is to make the system more reliable.
K, I'll keep that in mind in figuring out the price for all this business.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd Reid »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">2. on your car, you'd probably want the spray on at about 3-4 psi and up (due to the fact that you are starting with a high comp engine, vs the evo's low comp)....
</TD></TR></TABLE>
What's the Evo's CR, just so I have a comparison?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd Reid »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">6. you want to make sure if you make your own setup, that it is reliable. if you tune your car to run right on the edge and make max power with the injection, and the injection fails, or runs out of fluid, you stand a pretty good chance of detonating and hurting your motor.... as i said, i don't keep mine tuned like this; i have an aggressive tune on the motor for use with 93 octane, and i use the injection on top of it to keep detonation to a bare minimum, even on the hottest days. the motor pulls very very strong and really smooth, too. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Reliability is absolutely priority number one. While I realize more power will be available, the point of any of these things is to make the system more reliable.
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From: RIP Craig Jones
Re: JRSC on track question (Todd Reid)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd Reid »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Diasio, powered by a 1300 Hyabusa, with a GT35 turbo kit.</TD></TR></TABLE>
dear god
dear god
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From: Charlotte
Re: JRSC on track question (sscguy)
Drop Don a line.
https://honda-tech.com/zero...=7653
He has now using a different form of FI.
http://img403.imageshack.us/im...g.jpg
https://honda-tech.com/zero...=7653
He has now using a different form of FI.
http://img403.imageshack.us/im...g.jpg
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From: Elkton, MD, 21921
Re: JRSC on track question (sscguy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What's the Evo's CR, just so I have a comparison?
Reliability is absolutely priority number one. While I realize more power will be available, the point of any of these things is to make the system more reliable.</TD></TR></TABLE>
hi again! gotta go to work soon, so this will be last post on this til i get back tonight!
comp ratio on stock EVO is 8.8:1. b16a2 is 10.2:1, right?
if you run a good water injection kit, set up for reliability, you can run straight water, or water with a touch of meth, with that JRSC, at 6-8 psi; i'd figure all day long with no det probs. at 6-8 psi, i don't think intercooling should even really be a concern; i'd throw on a Knock-Link and test it first without an intercooler; -- i bet it would run really really well with the water injection, proper timing (really important to get the timing and advance right), and proper fueling....
have fun, dude!
todd
Reliability is absolutely priority number one. While I realize more power will be available, the point of any of these things is to make the system more reliable.</TD></TR></TABLE>
hi again! gotta go to work soon, so this will be last post on this til i get back tonight!
comp ratio on stock EVO is 8.8:1. b16a2 is 10.2:1, right?
if you run a good water injection kit, set up for reliability, you can run straight water, or water with a touch of meth, with that JRSC, at 6-8 psi; i'd figure all day long with no det probs. at 6-8 psi, i don't think intercooling should even really be a concern; i'd throw on a Knock-Link and test it first without an intercooler; -- i bet it would run really really well with the water injection, proper timing (really important to get the timing and advance right), and proper fueling....
have fun, dude!
todd
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From: Okie in training, usa
Re: JRSC on track question (sscguy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What I'm wondering is, how does everyone like the supercharged powerband? I'm assuming it'll be relatively linear, as opposed to the more hyperbolic (?) powerband of a turbocharged deal. That linearity is exactly what I'm looking for, so I'm just looking to confirm that.</TD></TR></TABLE>
IMO...
I put 30k miles and many many autox events into a turbocharged honda (d16 w/ y8 head and tranny and a cute little t25 turbo @ 10 psi). IMO, the linearity of the power band is directly proportional to the amount of thought put into the turbo setup (not $$$). My powerband was very linear, and it seriously outpowered similar JRSC'd Hondas for half the cost.
Personally I wouldn't consider supercharging for any reason other than the novelty of it... and maybe for a dedicated autox car. But for HPDE's where "lag" is even less of an issue (also not a problem on a well thought out turbo setup) I think a JRSC is nowhere near the best option for the $$$.
IMO...
I put 30k miles and many many autox events into a turbocharged honda (d16 w/ y8 head and tranny and a cute little t25 turbo @ 10 psi). IMO, the linearity of the power band is directly proportional to the amount of thought put into the turbo setup (not $$$). My powerband was very linear, and it seriously outpowered similar JRSC'd Hondas for half the cost.
Personally I wouldn't consider supercharging for any reason other than the novelty of it... and maybe for a dedicated autox car. But for HPDE's where "lag" is even less of an issue (also not a problem on a well thought out turbo setup) I think a JRSC is nowhere near the best option for the $$$.
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From: Burninating the peasants yo
Re: JRSC on track question (fsp31)
By the way, thanks Will, forgot to mention that before
fsp, a T25 on a B-series would be way too small I've heard. It would spool up fast , but then run out of steam early. That may work on a smaller displacement engine like a 1.5/1.6 that doesn't rev like crazy, but on a B16 that's winding way up there, or a bigger displacement 1.8....
I'm aware that a good turbo setup is possible. However, all the ones I've seen have been big $$$. Well thought out, sure, but good manifolds and turbos aren't cheap. And though this would be more unique to my current setup, I question a turbo and all the associated gizmos fitting in there with the radiator I have. Keep in mind too that I'm not looking for the most power I can get or anything, I'm just looking for something better than what I have. I've driven a few turbo cars, and even the well setup ones with very minimal lag just aren't to my taste.
And FWIW, I've ridden/driven a TD04h-D-series car, and while it is quick, I REALLY don't like the powerband at all.
fsp, a T25 on a B-series would be way too small I've heard. It would spool up fast , but then run out of steam early. That may work on a smaller displacement engine like a 1.5/1.6 that doesn't rev like crazy, but on a B16 that's winding way up there, or a bigger displacement 1.8....
I'm aware that a good turbo setup is possible. However, all the ones I've seen have been big $$$. Well thought out, sure, but good manifolds and turbos aren't cheap. And though this would be more unique to my current setup, I question a turbo and all the associated gizmos fitting in there with the radiator I have. Keep in mind too that I'm not looking for the most power I can get or anything, I'm just looking for something better than what I have. I've driven a few turbo cars, and even the well setup ones with very minimal lag just aren't to my taste.
And FWIW, I've ridden/driven a TD04h-D-series car, and while it is quick, I REALLY don't like the powerband at all.
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From: Okie in training, usa
Re: JRSC on track question (sscguy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">fsp, a T25 on a B-series would be way too small I've heard. It would spool up fast , but then run out of steam early.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It sure would. But then, that's where the brain work comes in. Worked perfectly for my motor (d16), and application (autox), but your needs and your motor are different.
BTW, please don't judge all turbo's by your experience with a TD04h! That thing is a dinosaur!
It sure would. But then, that's where the brain work comes in. Worked perfectly for my motor (d16), and application (autox), but your needs and your motor are different.
BTW, please don't judge all turbo's by your experience with a TD04h! That thing is a dinosaur!
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From: Columbia, MO, USA
Re: JRSC on track question (fsp31)
I'm with you on not liking the response of turbo cars. I've driven a bunch of purportedly lag-free cars and wouldn't have described them as such myself, and when I've driven cars with big-power turbos they've been fun to wind out but the response was awful to drive smoothly.
Too bad turbo cars are faster for less money by a wide margin.
Too bad turbo cars are faster for less money by a wide margin.