hey guys i have a stock type r with AXXIS ultimates and rt-615's will these hold up to HPDE's or do i need a seperate set of pads and rotors this will be my first one but im wondering if i will need seperate rotors and pads in the future?

What kind of brake fluid should i run?

What about tranny fluid?

 

How much track experience do you hav? If your just learning those should be fine just make sure they have plenty of meat left on them. As for the brake fluid, I personally run ATE superblue and trans I run Honda MTF.

 

Ekim,

I just ran the WTDR Expo on my stock pads. Through every session I could feel the brake pedal getting softer and softer and through every session I was getting more comfortable with the track and getting faster which means I need to brake harder heading into the turns but the brakes weren't there. The first thing I would spend money on before I go to my next HPDE would be upgrade pads and rotors. I am no where near able to out drive my stock R yet but I do feel as though the stock pads held me back. Whether your "AXXIS ultimates and rt-615's" will be fine or not i'm not sure. Just wanted to give you my 0.02. Good luck and have fun. As they told me "Keep is shiny side up"

I ran stock brake fluid and just changed Honda MTF before the event.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dave_B &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How much track experience do you hav? If your just learning those should be fine just make sure they have plenty of meat left on them. As for the brake fluid, I personally run ATE superblue and trans I run Honda MTF.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually I'd disagree on the pads. Most novice drivers drag the brakes in my experience (instead of just getting on them for the shortest time possible). Braking hard is more scary for a novice than using the brakes for a longer duration.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Swell_Ryder &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> would be upgrade pads and rotors. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Just use autozone/cobalt/etc blanks, there isn't a need to have a bling expensive rotor on a street/hpde car.

Pad upgrade =

 

[QUOTE=Dave-ROR]
Actually I'd disagree on the pads. Most novice drivers drag the brakes in my experience (instead of just getting on them for the shortest time possible).QUOTE]

That's another debate. It is arguable which technique taxes the brake system more when slowing down from 110 mph to 60 mph: A) braking at 97% pedal pressure for 100 feet. B) braking at 60% pedal pressure for 180 feet. Either way, the driver converted 50 mph into brake heat...so the effect may be the same?

The more experienced driver is likely carrying more speed on the straight prior to our braking example, but also carrying more speed into the corner after braking, so he's still dumping about the same 50 mph (in a very short distance). The more experienced driver probably has put much better pads, fluid and perhaps ducts on his car. The Noob is more likely to show up with near-stock pad compounds, so even though he's braking less agressively, his pedal may get soft due to equipment - not because he's braking "light and long".

Anyways...Cobalt and Carbotech offer a wide range of pad choices...some that are a good street/track compromise, and some that are very effective for track only. Talk to those folks and get the right pads and fluid. I've had good luck with Motul 600 @ $12 per bottle. ITR rotors from Autozone are about $23! You can also rig up some temporary ducts with cheap flexible dryer hose and a bunch of zip ties. It will be effort well spent because you'll get much more enjoyment out of your track day with confidence in your brakes!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Track rat &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
That's another debate. It is arguable which technique taxes the brake system more when slowing down from 110 mph to 60 mph: A) braking at 97% pedal pressure for 100 feet. B) braking at 60% pedal pressure for 180 feet. Either way, the driver converted 50 mph into brake heat...so the effect may be the same?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Please excuse me, but I'm not sure it's really all that debatable.

The time you spend dragging the brakes is also time that you are preventing the dissipation of heat.

The incidence of cracked and warped rotors, burned brake fluid, and gassed brake pads is much greater among beginning drivers who insist on dragging the brakes over longer periods instead of compressing the brake zone.

Their brain problem is easy to understand and is hard to counteract. As they go through the sessions the brake pedal feel gets softer and the pedal travel gets longer, and this causes them to be more cautious, so they start dragging longer and starting to brake farther back, and this makes the problem worse, so they start dragging longer and braking even farther back.

Before you know it, the brake fluid is boiling and they've cracked or warped a rotor.

The fastest ITR drivers are on the edge of ABS every time they brake. You'll eventually get fast enough that you're replacing your rotors more often than you really want, but it'll be because you're truly fast.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Track rat &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That's another debate. It is arguable which technique taxes the brake system more when slowing down from 110 mph to 60 mph: A) braking at 97% pedal pressure for 100 feet. B) braking at 60% pedal pressure for 180 feet. Either way, the driver converted 50 mph into brake heat...so the effect may be the same?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well I can just speak from my experience, and my experience with my integra on sebring's long course is: When I was a really really novice driver I overheated my brakes with hawk blues and ate superblue (fresh bleed, etc). When I wasn't quite so novice and hitting higher speeds (straight and cornering) and using the brakes hard I never had a problem.

Now for that first event in the integra and the second (and 3rd, 4th, etc) nothing changed, later I changed to r compounds but always used the same pads and fluid.

The only other time I had brake problems was when I glazed the OEM rear pads because I forgot to buy another set of hawk blacks for the rear.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You'll eventually get fast enough that you're replacing your rotors more often than you really want, but it'll be because you're truly fast.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, there ya go! Thanks for helping me make my point.

Braking short and hard is the right way to do it...but I don't see how it's easier on equipment than braking long and medium. I'm not talking about dragging the brakes all over the track, but in the context of the 100 ft vs 180 ft example in my earlier post.

 

Ok guys so whats a good pad that will work on the street and be fit for hpde's and some autocrossing I understand performance in each of these are may have to suffer a little

 

I have had good experience with Carbotech Panther Plus as a street/track compromise and Motul 600 fluid. Many here have good results with a Cobalt street/track pad.

http://www.carbotecheng.com/

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Track rat &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
... but in the context of the 100 ft vs 180 ft example in my earlier post.</TD></TR></TABLE>

For 80 feet you are building heat instead of dissipating it, thereby contributing unnecessarily to the stress placed on the pads, rotors and fluid.

Since we're agreeing that compressed braking is the best way around the track, I'm not going to talk anymore about whether or not it's harder on the equipment because a novice driver might misinterpret what we're talking about.

The novice driver needs to listen to his instructor when he says the brake zones need to be shorter and more compressed, because the instructor is telling him this based on years of personal experience about the issue.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekim952522000 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok guys so whats a good pad that will work on the street and be fit for hpde's and some autocrossing I understand performance in each of these are may have to suffer a little</TD></TR></TABLE>

You've given us three different scenarios: street, track, autocross.

For two of those (street and autocross) your need for good initial cold bite probably over rides the needs you'd have for your occasional ventures out onto the track.

For this reason, I'd suggest that you first try Cobalt Friction GT Sports before you move on to more aggressive pads that require warming up. You don't have time to warm up your pads in an autocross or in an emergency on the street.

Cobalt Friction GT Sports have a CF of .48μ and a temperature range of 75-450.

If, however, you find yourself addicted to track driving at the expense of streetability, and/or you don't mind switching your front pads at the track, then the very best thing available (IMHO) is Cobalt Friction Spec VR.

Spec VR have a CF of .64μ and a spec temperature range of 350-1600 degrees. The pads are really more streetable than you'd imagine, and a lot of us who use our cars mostly for track use but still drive <u>to</u> the track will just leave these on all the time.

They are surprisingly kind to rotors, but you are still going to wear out the rotors a lot faster than street pads will. Although they have surprisingly good cold bite for a racing brake pad, they are still nowhere near as good as a street pad or the Cobalt GT Sports.

If you find yourself reaching speeds of 140 or so on the track, then it's probably time to think about Spec VR.

 

I would tend to agree with everything George has stated. Although i have not used the VRs personally, i have the GT Sports. They are great for DD, and excellent for novice to somewhat intermediate usage. As you begin to become more comfortable with higher speeds though, the spec VRs will probably be the best choice. I plan to upgrade to these myself in the near future!

 

I used AXXIS ultimates for a few HPDEs and they were fine when I was a new jack, but as soon as I learned what speed was they did not hold up as well as I needed. I murdered my stock pads the fist HPDE I ever did, I would not recommend them.

My choice of brake setup for track is VR pads for the front and GT sports (I need more then GT sports for the rear), ATE Blue, SS lines and no splash shield on the front rotors.

For a good learning tool I would use AXXIS ultimates and everything else stock and then upgrade as needed.

AXXIS ultimates are a fine all around pads and work well in cold to hot weather, light track use and have a very nice pedal feel.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ossabB &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I(I need more then GT sports for the rear),.</TD></TR></TABLE>

<FONT SIZE="2">-- IF --</FONT>

1.You're getting up around 140 on track and having to threshold brake down to 50 or less,

2.Your bushings are good,

3.You have heavy enough springs on the front to keep the nose up,

4.You've already tried slight toe in on the rear,

AND you're still wiggling,

<FONT SIZE="2">-- THEN --</FONT>

Consider Cobalt Friction Spec B for the rear of your OEM ITR brake setup.

They are mean to the rotors, but if you've tried everything else they will give you more bite in the rear without overpowering the Spec VR on the fronts and/or affecting ABS in an emergency.

 

Rodney is selling some track pads...

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1449592

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Another Drew &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Rodney is selling some track pads...

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1449592
</TD></TR></TABLE>

those are not novice or even hpde pads. they are blingin jdm race compounds that will dust like hell and more than likely make short work of your rotors.

I know exactly where they came from, I even had a set, just never used them.

Stick with the Cobalt pads. Start with Sports all around.


Modified by 1GreyTeg at 1:53 PM 11/30/2005

 

Everyone here is giving you good advice. Here's mine to add to what others have said. In particular, a lot of folks are giving you good advice on what to use, but aren't distinguishing between things you REALLY need to replace NOW, vs things that you might not need to replace at all for the time being.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekim952522000 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hey guys i have a stock type r with AXXIS ultimates and rt-615's will these hold up to HPDE's or do i need a seperate set of pads and rotors</TD></TR></TABLE>

You're asking about a lot of different things in one question, so here are my recommendations :

FRONT Pads - Like the others, I also recommend that you get the Cobalt GT Sport pads. It's a significant upgrade from the Axxis Ultimates, great for HPDE and autocross but still usable for daily driving.

REAR Pads - The rear pads don't get a lot of use. Whatever you're using in the rear - stock, Axxis Ultimates, GT Sport, etc - I would suggest that you just leave them there, as long as they aren't getting too thin. When it comes time to change them, then I would suggest the GT Sport, but I wouldn't bother changing until they get thin.

Tires - The Falken RT-615 are fine. Good choice.

Rotors - Whatever you currently have, just make sure they don't have any significant cracks. If not, just keep using them. The type of rotors don't make a lot of difference. Sure, if you need new ones, I think the Autozone rotors ($25 each front, $50ish each rear) are a good choice, but again, I wouldn't bother changing until they crack or get too thin.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekim952522000 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What kind of brake fluid should i run?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Read this topic. If you have changed your brake fluid within the past 6-8 months, using a reasonably high boiling temperature fluid, then you're fine. Otherwise, I recommend that you flush your fluid using either Motul RBF600, or another fluid with a dry boiling point as good as the Motul.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekim952522000 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What about tranny fluid?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Honda MTF is fine in my experience. If you've replaced it within the previous two years or 30K miles, it should still be fine; otherwise, replace it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


FRONT Pads - Like the others, I also recommend that you get the Cobalt GT Sport pads. It's a significant upgrade from the Axxis Ultimates, great for HPDE and autocross but still usable for daily driving.

REAR Pads - GT Sport, etc - I would suggest that you just leave them there, as long as they aren't getting too thin. When it comes time to change them, then I would suggest the GT Sport, but I wouldn't bother changing until they get thin.

Tires - The Falken RT-615 are fine. Good choice.

Rotors - Whatever you currently have, just make sure they don't have any significant cracks. If not, just keep using them. The type of rotors don't make a lot of difference. </TD></TR></TABLE>

+1, same exact setup, Autozone blank rotors, Cobalt GT sports F/R, and Falken Azenis RT615. Awesome setup, ran the same setup last year only with the Azenis 215, also a very good setup (same brakes as well).

 

Awesom guys thanks thats what i was looking for a setup that i could use in the street and HPDE's thanks for all the great input

 

FWIW I ran Axxis Ultimates for about a year for street/track/auto-X. They worked well since I was a novice but dusted like a **** the more they wore down.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Opie &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">FWIW I ran Axxis Ultimates for about a year for street/track/auto-X. They worked well since I was a novice but dusted like a **** the more they wore down.</TD></TR></TABLE>

But they were a good learning tool, no?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ossabB &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

But they were a good learning tool, no?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Absolutely. Good initial grip, worked well during winter, and in rain, low fade (when I was a n00b), inexpensive and kind to rotors. But as I said before, they dust like a **** and ruined my OEM CW wheels

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Opie &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ruined my OEM CW wheels </TD></TR></TABLE>

Mine too. Ultimates are a good street pad (other than the dust) and for a first time HPDE'er they'll do just fine.