Here's the motor setup:

Dart B20+ tall-deck block, bored to 85mm
Eagle 95mm crank
Eagle 5.967" H-beam rods
JE 11.6:1 (-2cc) pistons
RLZ all-motor GSR head with RLZ street motor valvetrain, shaved to 38cc-40cc, static CR is high 12's (.040" Cometic HP head gasket), compression readings are between 285 and 300 PSI
Blox HSL Tuner cams, I:255@.05"/.496", E:256@.05"/.494"
TWM 50mm ITB's -w- RC 750cc injectors and UNI oiled-foam sock filters
RMF narrow header into 3" Thermal Research Turbo exhaust
AEM EMS -w- C2DI/COP and Tony1 Hall Effect ignition setup
GE cam gears
Tuning by Jason (JDogg)

This is on 100 octane, but timing didn't make more than a 2WHP difference so Jason set it so it runs fine on 93 octane making 213. Cam adjustment (adjusted intake and exhaust + & - three degrees) also made negligible (about 2 WHP) difference. The motor feels really strong as I wind it up, then falls on its face. Here's the dyno:



Here's what I'm thinking (thanks to Brad at RLZ and Jason/JDogg for helping me with these thoughts):

<U>Intake restriction from my air filters</U>

As soon as I can get ahold of Jason I'll check the MAP sensor values he datalogged on the dyno, that should tell if there's an intake restriction.


<U>Exhaust restriction</U>

Probably not from the header, everyone else seems to be making good power with the RMF headers, but maybe it doesn't like my TR exhaust? I'll run it open header next dyno trip and see if it makes a difference.


<U>Cams are not degreed</U>

I verified the markings on the cam gears by comparing them to stock cam gears and used the gears to zero the cams. TDC was determined using the stock TDC mark and verified with a graduated stick.

After I get back from out of town next week I'll degree the cams and verify the lobe profiles to make sure they match what is on the spec sheet. I'll also verify TDC with a micrometer.


<U>Blox HSL cams suck ***</U>

These were kind of cheap, but they had the right specs for what RLZ said should work with this head. After I do all the other stuff and make sure this isn't an assembly issue, then I can ebay them and get a set of something better like Skunk2 Pro Series Stage 2's. OF course if I find out the lobe profiles don't match the published specs, then out they go.


We would have tried more stuff at the dyno, but Jason had to head out to SEMA and I'm running the car this weekend at Rockingham and then on the road to Florida in it next week for work, so I wanted to get a safe tune on it that I could run for a week or two. After I get back I'll work on it some more and try to get it all sorted out.

Ignore the AFR readings on the dyno sheet, the car has a wideband that we used for tuning.

 

are you sure your running a 95mm crank?
not 89mm

 

The curve looks pretty smooth and you see a few jitters where it starts to taper and also near the end of the run. I'd say look at ignition or mechanical? You mention zeroing the cams out, but possibly piston to valve contact?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sa90eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">are you sure your running a 95mm crank?
not 89mm</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, the Dart block had to be clearanced to fit it in there.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Toadfart &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The curve looks pretty smooth and you see a few jitters where it starts to taper and also near the end of the run. I'd say look at ignition or mechanical? You mention zeroing the cams out, but possibly piston to valve contact? </TD></TR></TABLE>

The valves were clayed to check the valve-to-piston clearance, so I doubt I'm running the valves into the pistons, and the ignition is probably the best thing I can put on a Honda, it's not misfiring and the timing signal is perfectly steady and stable, much cleaner than the signal that I used to get off of my distributor.

 

The UNI foam filters are probably killing the top end power a little. I would try a "screen" type sock filter instead.

 

Im guessing cams. The piston to valve clearance is tight but not so tight it would contact. Even if they did make contact you woul dhave other issues at hand other than low torque. ROFL. Like peices of parts lying on the racetrack.

So tuning the cam gears didnt do anything for you eh?

 

Why are you running 750cc injectors?

You aren't approaching the capacity of that 3" exhaust system from Thermal R.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FULLTHROTTLE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So tuning the cam gears didnt do anything for you eh?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Maybe 2 WHP difference, I think we ended up with 1 degree of intake and 1 degree of exhaust advance. I really think I need to degree them, especially with the offset that I had to put on them to zero them on the tall-deck block. I've never degreed cams before, but I understand the principle behind it. I ordered the tools I'll need to do it today and I'll give it a shot after I get back from Florida, probably have my tuner come over and help me with it the first time as he's done it before and has the tools to measure the cam lobes. What really sucks is that I'm going to get raped by my brother in his new CRX at Rockingham this weekend.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SMSP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why are you running 750cc injectors?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I had them left over from a turbo setup. The Lucas-disk type injectors can be run on a very short duty cycle without affecting performance.

 

When you put the cams straight up, did you put the pins in the cams.Because that deck height is way off.That belt is 1"1/8" longer than stock right.And like Dave said those are some big injectors.What are they running at 3% LOL

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rmcdaniels &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I had them left over from a turbo setup. The Lucas-disk type injectors can be run on a very short duty cycle without affecting performance.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Don't think I buy that for all cases.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RMF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When you put the cams straight up, did you put the pins in the cams.Because that deck height is way off.That belt is 1"1/8" longer than stock right.And like Dave said those are some big injectors.What are they running at 3% LOL</TD></TR></TABLE>

I couldn't find the alignment holes in the Blox cams, so I lined them up at 0 degrees with the cam gears, marked them against the journals with a fine-point Sharpie, put the crank at TDC, and moved the cams back (took 3 degrees of retard) until the Sharpie marks lined up. I'm not sure what the injectors are running at, have to get Jason on this thread for tuning info, but it idles rock steady, we can idle it at 600 RPM and it doesn't vary but a few RPM. That's a huge difference from how it used to idle when I was running the ignition off of the distributor signal.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SMSP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Don't think I buy that for all cases.</TD></TR></TABLE>

But wouldn't that mostly affect the idle and lower RPM performance? I had discounted the injectors as a cause of the problem because it pulls hard up until 6000 RPM. As soon as I can get ahold of Jason I'll get a datalog of the dyno pulls and I can post up graphs of injector utilization and other stuff.

 

From the looks of the dyno and the description of it falling on its face it acts like the timing belt is off a tooth.

 

damn roger...you and me are making the b-series strokers look bad to jason, haha

don't worry, you'll get this stuff figured out....and don't do what i did and sell it all off.

&lt;--214/159 from my old 2.1L

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FULLTHROTTLE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">From the looks of the dyno and the description of it falling on its face it acts like the timing belt is off a tooth. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, I've checked that at least a dozen times because that just makes sense. I even borrowed that snappy cam alignment tool from a guy here locally to make sure the Sharpie cam alignment was correct, and it was. At TDC those cams are lined up correctly if the key slot on the cams is correct. It'll be interesting to see what a degree wheel says, but I'll probably have to wait until I get back from my road trip.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rhd &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">damn roger...you and me are making the b-series strokers look bad to jason, haha

don't worry, you'll get this stuff figured out....and don't do what i did and sell it all off.

&lt;--214/159 from my old 2.1L</TD></TR></TABLE>

Isn't yours about to rise again? When does Casey get it back from RLZ?

Edit - And I'm not allowed to get any more motors, I think my wife put a lawyer on speed-dial after she figured out how much this one was costing.

 

yeah, it'll be back...again...shooting for 230/240whp on pump with the new parts

all the stuff i was gonna do, he's done:
3" ehuast compared ot my booshit 60mm mess
70mm throttle body compraed to my pos stock GSR
Edlebrock mani compared to my dissapointing JG sheetmetal
12:1 compression compared to my 11.0:1(i had a thick headgasket to start with)
a ballin *** RMF header compared to my JDM DC
and REAL TUNING via howard instead of my booshit Turbotune 10:1 a/r bullshit


i'm not really sure what he's waiting on...but, it should come back soon

 

youll get it figured out roger. definitly a small problem somewhere, but its gonna haul once you get it straight. cant offer any explanation but good luck with it

 

I would vote:
Head: It probably doesn't flow anywhere near what it needs to for that much displacement.
Header: While others make nice power with it, but I would bet if you put a larger pipe header on it, it will really open things up.
Cams: I've never heard of anyone making a TON of power with them, perhaps they are garbage. Try something tried and true for something of that displacement (see TBone).

I doubt your exhaust is plugging it up.

Add a little bit of timing to the upper RPMs if you are using 110, get the biggest bang for the buck if you're spending that much on gas.

I hope to get my B20/VTEC to the wheel dyno soon, but it made 288hp/187tq on the engine dyno, and its a stock stroke motor. Even if you figure 15%, I'm at 244-250whp. We'll see.

 

the head is not the problem for sure.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Casey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the head is not the problem for sure.</TD></TR></TABLE>

With that kind of displacement to fill, oversized intake valves would be handy. What cfm does the head flow?

 

i'm sure if flows enough....i mean, brad is the undisputed best, no?

 

probably not going to find out, it was on rlz's hatch when it ran 11.2 NA

 

expletive you rob. i was answering.