Where can I find a system which makes a B series or D series back fire and produce more torque?

Does this kinda of system even exsist?

This system is found in Rally cars and Ive seen it used in D1 and N1 endurance races.

 

 

 

That's from the anti-lag system used in WRC cars... I don't know that B/D-series motors are popular enough in turbo format to necessitate a ready-made anti-lag system, but AL is pretty brutal on the turbo since it basically throw raw fuel onto the red-hot compressor wheel so the fuel ignites, goes boom and the rapid gas expansion drives the turbo impeller, keeping it from slowing down when the throttle plate is closed.

 

An Autronic standalone has anti-lag capabilities.

As has already been stated, you will go through turbos very quickly with an anti-lag system in place.

 

Not to mention the beating the exhaust valves take with something like that.

Personally, I wouldn't even think of using something like that on a Honda engine. Just size the turbo correctly and lag is NOT an issue on the track.

 

That just keeps the turbo spooled up, yes? So this "more torque" thing is nonsense. In addition to that, I wouldn't think an enduro car would use that, given the destructive nature of the system. You want all the engine bits to last in a car like that.

 

Thanks for all the input...

 

Another question... Can this anti lag system be turned on and off? Does it engauge during every shift? and what type of stress can I expect this to put on the turbo?

Are there especially strong turbos out there built for this type of abuse.

The plan is to anti lag a b16-b18-or k20 in a sol

 

Dude, you just plain don't want to do it. There aren't turbos available that can take the abuse, or else the WRC guys would be using them. Unless you have A LOT of money to be wasting on turbo after turbo after turbo, this is STRONGLY advised against. In addition to that, the places this would even be useful, a rally or roadracing situation, I can't imagine you're actually participating in at any kind of competitive level. And for roadracing, I don't know of any class that would allow such a thing.

What you can do instead is get a properly sized turbo for your application. Then there will be minimal lag and good power without having to shell out $800 or whatever every time you blow one up.

 

Do me a favor, go to google and search for anti-lag. You will find all you need there. But, just to give you a little run-down and whats not.

I have been a big turbo nut, and I have realized that people over in the UK as well as my home country Jamaica, are actually using anti lags in thier daily driven Lancer Evolutions(mainly, but other turbo cars as well). As mentioned before, as the term states, anti-lag is basically a computer controlled system that fires raw fuel inbetween sparks, through the open exhaust vavles, right into the extremely hot turbine. The heat from the turbines housing along with the explosiveness of fuel just simply causes a massive explosion, keeping the turbine wheel in motion.

In order to place anti-lag (or as I have heard some people over here in the states call it, a 'miss-fire' system), you first need a turbo. Then, you need proper injectors to support the 'un-normal' cycle they will be introduced to. Then, probably the next, and most expensive part, is a stand alone that performs the necessary provisions (and trust me, not very many stand alones in the US run it, but, it aint cheap).

As mentioned, Autronics is a very known and widely used brand for the evo guys over in Europe. But, Motec is probably bigger, more widely used, and more tuners available with more parameters present for the computer.

Yes, the system can be turned off. As for the stress of a turbo, its 'TREMENDOUS' depending on how often you use it and how much fuel is fired off, duration, etc. As I said, I have seen street guys use it over in Europe, but albeit, on an extremely 'soft' setting and its not left on (almost always used for the cool sound effects they make, which, quiet frankly, I LOVE).

Lots of race classes other than rally classes use it. Even in some enduro cars use it as well. The anti-lag can be set using the stand alones, so it can be used just for a short burst to be operated between shifts, or just when your launching from a low speed corner where the turbo is off boost, or even at certain RPMS and gears.

But, bottom line DONT USE THE DARN THING ON THE STREET. Period. From what I have seen, there are not that many people in the states with the ability to tune a stand along with anti-lag capabilities. I would stay away from it and as people said, just get the right turbo. Anti-lag is overkill for the street and your car.

 

I actually didn't realize the system could be tuned that precisely (in the example of the enduro cars). That's pretty cool, though still of course completely unnecessary for a street car.

 

anti lag is pretty brutal... we use it mainly when drag racing to build boost at the line for a good launch... we have blown holes in exhaust manifolds, cracked turbine wheels,etc...

generally it works by pulling the ignition timing back to about -17ish deg and dumping fuel. most rally cars and such have seperate air and fuel injectors in the exhaust manifold, when the driver lifts off the gas the seperate air/fuel injectors inject fuel and air directly into the exhaust manifold where it combusts keeping the turbo spooled. i dont immagine anyone would want something that complex on the street, its pretty useless. with turbo technology today you can make 450hp and have a turbo with near instant spool.

 

For OBD-1 cars, there is a system called Chrome which has anti-lag. Used to spool the car while its on the two step(for drag racing) Other then that, I don't know much about it.

 

I used it in all my workshoprally cars all evolution 6 and 8 and some honda.. All are running Motec ecu.Usually we took timing off to about 25 which is a lot . It all depends on the driver driving style and engine temp.For Honda we usually use a switch and running softer setting, it is much faster driving the car having a t3/t4 spool up all the time. Tried in my NA car just for fun , the idle sound really cool but there is no effect just wasting avgas..for the rally car turbo life is about 1000km- 1300km before the turbine becomes bald.. (no switch allowed based on FIA regulation). For the Honda u can run switch as i already have done ,recommended ECU is Motec as it feature the most complete, I have a AEM ecu in my mk4 , it does have ALS option though i have not fiddle with it. Have fun trying ALS , the more the merrier....

 

Also, some of the evolutions and celica gt4s came from the factory 'with' anti-lag or the ecu option of running it but it wasnt enabled for the street. It was done all for homologation purposes

 

Whos says I race the track??

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Elwuudz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Whos says I race the track?? </TD></TR></TABLE>

why would you come into a RR/autoX forum to ask this question if you dont' race on some type of track

 

.....just use launch control and full throttle shift that many off the shelf obd1 systems provide: hondata/ crome/ uberdata/ neptune, etc.....

 

Someone just watched Initial D.....

Look if your on the street use nitrous.

 

everyones being so nice. it's one thing to want to know how something works but
another altogether to waste material with little gain. i say let him blow **** up,
it's his money

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Elwuudz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Whos says I race the track?? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Hahaha! Wrong forum y0!

Get a GT2871R. No lag. Or a little nitrous to get things moving!

-Chris

 

You can set up an antilag map in several popular stand alone systems.

AEM
Motec
Autronic
Gems
Hydra (less popular)
and many more.

There are several styles, and (I stand corrected) there is a disabled daughter board on the Evo 6 RSII and cossie which came with a Magnetti Morelli ECU but required further changes to enable the antilag. (Machining the throttle body)

Antilag is achieved by a severe timing retardation and added air. This enables unburned gas to pass open exhaust valves, entering the manifold and exploding. The explosion of unburned fuel in the manifold keeps the turbo spooled in off-throttle situations.

The above posts mix two things together, launch control (a very crude type that can hardly be called launch control, more like a two-step or no-lift to shift style) and what's becoming known as "rally style"

First, you need a turbo car. Second, a method to keep the throttle cracked open. The severity of the antilag, or what some people call the "degree of agressiveness" depends on the opening size of the throttle, or how much air you're letting in the TB. One can use a stepper motor, a vacuum actuated pot, or a throttle stop to achieve the opening.

The antilag is switchable, on and off if you use a mechanical actuator. The point of using the actuator is to keep your idle normal under regular driving conditions. If you have the throttle cracked enough to keep the bang bang on then the idle will be at about 3K rpm and anyone with a dogbox or race box will have difficulty engaging first.

It's for this reason that tuners will use rotary idle, a sequential firing and shutting off of cylinders to keep the idle low.

We've tuned cars to make zero vacuum at off throttle, and some to make 10psi. The turbos that we've found suitable for even agressive antilag are IHI, Holset and some common Garrett. Those unsuitable for agressive, and thus tuned for low boost off throttle are Mitsubishi TDO5, Garrett Gt. It should be noted that the new TDO5HR are suitable for even agressive antilag with their titanium shaft and inconel housings.


Alex Grabau
http://www.dentsport.com
dent sport garage


Modified by agrabau at 10:37 PM 11/2/2005


Modified by agrabau at 10:38 PM 11/2/2005

 

How are Garrett GT's less suitable than regular journal bearing?

 

I have heard that the shaft design is less suitable for the rigeurs of antilag. I could be wrong though. It's happened before. Garrett says that BB turbos can't be run on any axis but horizontal but Subaru runs the IHI vertically in the WRC car... go figure.