All the posts about the new Garrett T-technology ball bearing turbos has provided some interesting reading.

So here is what we have to offer -- all new and complete for $847.50. Remember that each turbo has a 12-month, 12,000 mile limited warranty and we rebuild what we sell (yes, we do rebuild ball bearing turbos). Oh, and we never charge anyone's credit card until it actually goes out the door. Substantial dealer discounts are also available.

450-hp
Model 5031RE - Available with NEW Precision T3 4-bolt or 5-bolt discharge turbine housing, .48 or .63 A/R, with or without internal wastegate hole. T04E style compressor cover with 3" inlet/2" outlet with CNC-machined backplates.

545-hp
Model 3431RE - Available with NEW Precision T3 4-bolt or 5-bolt discharge turbine housing, .48 or .63 A/R, with or without internal wastegate hole. T04E style compressor cover with 3" inlet/2" outlet with CNC-machined backplates.

565-hp
Model 4431RE - Available with NEW Precision T3 4-bolt or 5-bolt discharge turbine housing, .48 or .63 A/R, with or without internal wastegate hole. T04E style compressor cover with 3" inlet/2" outlet with CNC-machined backplates.

580-hp
Model 6031RE or 6031RS - Available with NEW Precision T3 4-bolt or 5-bolt discharge turbine housing, .48 or .63 A/R, with or without internal wastegate hole. T04E style compressor cover with 3" inlet/2" outlet with CNC-machined backplates. Optional T04S compressor cover with 4" inlet/2.5" outet is also available at extra charge.

Model 6076E or 6076S - Available with NEW Precision T3 4-bolt or 5-bolt discharge turbine housing, .48 or .63 A/R, with or without internal wastegate hole. Larger T4 style exhaust housing in .58, .68, .81 or .96 A/R available at no extra charge. T04E style compressor cover with 3" inlet/2" outlet with CNC-machined backplates. Optional T04S compressor cover with 4" inlet/2.5" outet is also available at extra charge.

 

the 6076S is good for how much hp in both the .63 a/r t3 and .68, .81, and .96 a/r t4?

 

Thanks for the question. We rate very, very conservatively, which is why we did not show a higher hp rating for the 6076 over the 6031. I would expect it would be worth another 20-hp at least while the larger T04S compressor cover might be worth another 10. Hope this helps.

 

for the 6076e and 6076s you didnt mention the estimated hp in the original post.

 

I know . . . please look at the my reply above your post.

 

are these BB T3/T4's the same physical size as the normal Garret T3/T4's?

 

Rod, I assume the S compressor cover is still a $100.00 option?

-- 0x64

 

Do you think I could get a price on a ball bearing SCM-61 with an ported shroud TO4S housing?

 

They're the same physical size. the ball bearing cartridge is a drop in repalcement within the same CHRA (center housing rotating assembly).

This design offers significant advantages over Turbonetic's single hybrid ball bearing arrangement that still uses the journal bearing.

Garrett Engineering tells us you can expect a quicker spool up by 400-800 rpm.

 

Yes, the T04S is still an extra hundred bucks at retail. We can also do this in a T04S ported shroud so you don't go into compressor surge on certain engines. These covers are a tad more restrictive than the normal T04S, but worth it if you can avoid surging.

 

Ahhhhh . . . a SCM61 BB with a T04S ported shroud. Now you're talking! <wink>

Here's the low down on this. The smallest SC61 (6152E) uses a T350 76 trim turbine wheel. Unfortunately, Garrett is only offering the dual ball bearing center section with either a T31 76 tim or a P-trim turbine . . . right now.

The good news is that we can do any of the turbos mentioned above in a Mitsu .63 A/R exhaust housing. Those guys are gonna be even tougher when they get their hands on these.

You may want to strongly consider the 6031RS with the Mitsu housing. John Lee at Inline Pro is sold on this turbo, saying it spools and makes power nearly as well as the 6152E on a Honda. With the extra cost T04S ported shroud, you'd be looking at under $950.

Hope this helps.

 

OT: You guys need to change your ridiculously bad labeling system. No one associates 3431RE with anything. Just call it what it is, a 57 trim t04e wheel. People understand that. If you google your product numbers you are just linked to your site. Doesn't aid in finding compressor maps and things of the sort.

Really OT, 50 trim t04e wheel will flow more air and produce more power than a 57 trim so you may want to switch those numbers around. 50 trim wheel clearly flows more air at a higher efficency. It really annoying to always see people assume(turbo companies included) that 54/57 trim wheels will flow more than the superior 50 trim.

 

I honestly dont think their number system is confusing at all. Never has been.

50 trim compressor flow: 46 lbs/min 588cfm
57 trim compressor flow: 53 lbs/min 678cfm
60 trim compressor flow: 53 lbs/min 678cfm

 

are there any drop in's for my garret T3/T4 57 trim .63 a/r stage 3 wheel. I just got my turbo thermal coated so i really dont need a new one

 

I feel your pain, noobie. It's interesting that you had to sign up just to reply. BTW, welcome to Honda Tech.

All manufacturers have their own nomenclatures. For instance, what Turbonetics calls a Stage V, for instance, is roughly equivalent to Garrett's T350 76 trim turbine wheel. What they call a Stage III, is a T31 76 trim. Don't slam us just because everyone else hasn't adopted what we call things (or is it the other way around?) <grin>

You also shouldn't make assumptions about what trim makes more power than another. Turbine trim is exducer diameter squared divided by inducer diameter squared X 100. The formula for compressor trim is the inverse of what I just gave you. The same mathematical result can be arrived at by different variables.

In layman's terms, I can get the number 6 by multiplying 6x1, 2x3, 3,2, 1x6 and so on and so on. So, you can have the same trim number with vastly different inducer and exducer measurements.

You also don't take into account other variables. Different diameter wheels, for instance, could have the same trim, but flow completely different rates of air. The same wheel may also flow different rates depending on the housing that's used.

Also, Garrett has never released their T-technology compressor maps to the public anyway. All that's available for public viewing are the GT maps, which you can find on their web site at http://www.turbobygarrett.com.

Finally, you have to realize that compressor maps have somewhat limited value since you don't know what housing was used in the test. The data you see in these tests may not be relevant to the housing you're using. You should also remember that this is just a measurement of thermal dynamics used on a flow bench with a gas with known and measurebale expansion rates, such as propane. What's real world and what's in the lab can be vastly different.

In any event, I hope you didn't take this as my stepping on your toes. If you think that a 50-trim is vastly superior, well, I don't really know what your circumstances are or what the application is. Give me call someday. It would be fun to chat with you.

Happy spoolin!

 

CashmoneyUKR,

The 3431RE has a 34mm 57 trim (2.230" inducer/2.950" exducer) compressor wheel.

Stage III refers to the turbine wheel which, in Garrett terminology, would be a T31 76 trim (2.559" inducer/2.228" exducer).

So, the 3431RE would be your closest and best fit.

Now having said that, let me caution you. I don't know whose exhaust housing you're using (and I don't want you to waste money here), but the clearance around the exhaust wheel is very, very critical. Just because the housing fits over the exhasut wheel doesn't mean it's the right fit. If it's machined for an Innovative or Turbonetics wheel, I don't know for sure it's going to work right. Using hybrid components isn't always a good marraige.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rod Short &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">CashmoneyUKR,

The 3431RE has a 34mm 57 trim (2.230" inducer/2.950" exducer) compressor wheel.

Stage III refers to the turbine wheel which, in Garrett terminology, would be a T31 76 trim (2.559" inducer/2.228" exducer).

So, the 3431RE would be your closest and best fit.

Now having said that, let me caution you. I don't know whose exhaust housing you're using (and I don't want you to waste money here), but the clearance around the exhaust wheel is very, very critical. Just because the housing fits over the exhasut wheel doesn't mean it's the right fit. If it's machined for an Innovative or Turbonetics wheel, I don't know for sure it's going to work right. Using hybrid components isn't always a good marraige.</TD></TR></TABLE>
here are pics of my turbo. Its a garret. its not turbonetics or innovative

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 0x64 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I honestly dont think their number system is confusing at all. Never has been.

50 trim compressor flow: 46 lbs/min 588cfm
57 trim compressor flow: 53 lbs/min 678cfm
60 trim compressor flow: 53 lbs/min 678cfm</TD></TR></TABLE>

50 trim: http://64.225.76.178/catalog/compmaps/fig13.html
57 trim: http://64.225.76.178/catalog/compmaps/fig15.html
60 trim: http://64.225.76.178/catalog/compmaps/fig16.html

Clearly the 50 trim flows more than the 57 trim and flows almost as much as the 60 trim. 50 trim is way more efficent basically everywhere than the bigger 54 and 57 trim turbos. This should be clear to basically anyone. If you are interested in flow after 60% compressor efficency, then maybe the larger wheels flow more air but after 60% compressor efficency its just going to tax on the system more than contribute power. Compressor efficency is king. Flow is queen. I'll take 46lbs/min of air at 200*F over 60lbs/min of air at 400*F any day of the week.

As for the labeling system, its not really a knock its more like a misunderstanding. All these companies are using Garrett wheels. You, innovative, Turbonetics blah blah blah. Why would you rename the turbos with unrelateable titles. For example, your sc34 is a 57 trim t04e. People dont associate sc34 with t04e 57trim. The only people that do are precision dealers. Just call it a sc57. People can make connections with that. Its simple marketing. You want people to associate your products with familiar things. People know Garrett parts are basically the best out there. You guys use Garrett parts to build turbos and then cast your own housings. Thats great. Why take away the association with the best turbo manufacturer in the world by relabling the turbos? It makes no sense. I just know many people have stated similar things as they simply could not relate your number system to anything they were familiar with and that turned them off.

I just want to comment one other thing. One simply has to count on the manufacturers of items to supply valid data sheets. If they did not, people would have a lot of problems. I trust that the compressor maps available have some level of validity and will hold true to real life. I'll trust math over someone on a web forum telling me "dude, its a bigger wheel, it will make more power y0!"

 

I don't think you understand everything I said. Trim is just on of the variables you look at in selecting a turbo. I never said that a 54/57 trim will make more power than a 50 and don't know where that came from. That was your statement in your first post and you said that annoyed you. Maybe you should direct that somewhere else?

You also said that a 50 trim t04e wheel will flow more air and produce more power. I reminded you there were other variables involved. It's not just a function of thermal dynamics. You focus too hard on one contributing factor when, in fact, there are many other factors involved in flowing more air and making more power.

We can talk theory until we're both gray and old. In the meantime, I'll take a 61mm 56 trim compressor wheel (72% efficiency rating at 2.6 bar) off the SC61 at 63 to 68 lbs/min (depending on turbine wheel) anyday.

The SC34 (whatever the trim) is called that because it has a 34mm compressor wheel . . . plain and simple.

Not sure why you question the validity of compressor maps. We just said that Garrett had not made them available on the T-technology product. That's their decision, not ours.

Like I said, give me a call sometine and we'll try to help clear some things up for you.

 

Update . . .

Okay, let's have some fun with this. How about we do a 6776 for the same price?!? Yeah, we mean $847.50 + shipping.

First come, first served!

 

look at your PM Rod !

 

Email sent

 

Rod, Im going to try to be as friendly as possible and please try not to take this in the wrong way. Im going to break things down comment by comment to clairfy things so everyone can have a greater understanding(myself included).

If you look in your first post, you said the SC50 aka 50 trim t04e can produce 450hp. Below that you said an sc34 aka 57 trim T04e can produce 545hp. These same numbers are on your website. Now, if you look at the compressor maps I posted, look at the VERY limit. The 50 trim T04e will flow roughly 48lb/min at 60% compressor efficency while the 57 trim T04e will flow roughly 42lb/min at 60% compressor efficency. More flow at the same compressor efficency as the 50 trim producing more power. There are no two ways around it. There are no other variables. They all come with the same turbine wheel, same turbine housing option, and same compressor housing. Essentially they are the same turbo, except with a different compressor wheel. We arent talking about the best powerband on a paticular vehicle, we are talking about the max air flow a turbo will push.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
We can talk theory until we're both gray and old. In the meantime, I'll take a 61mm 56 trim compressor wheel (72% efficiency rating at 2.6 bar) off the SC61 at 63 to 68 lbs/min (depending on turbine wheel) anyday.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

That isnt applicable in this case as the GT3582r wheel is coupled with a stage 5 aka T350 wheel which isnt available in this Ball Bearing upgrade. Also the wheel doesnt flow anywhere near 68lb/min at 72% compressor efficency. I barely see it flowing 60lb/min at 72% compressor efficency....But I would agree, I'd take a GT3582r wheel with a t31 wheel over the standard T04e series if money was not a problem.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The SC34 (whatever the trim) is called that because it has a 34mm compressor wheel . . . plain and simple.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I really wish it was that simple.
545 SC-3427E 56mm 2.230" 2.950" 57 3" / 2"
That info is directly from your website. As you can see you guys label the SC34 as being 56mm and plugging 2.230" in google's conversion also leaves you with roughly 56mm so how can that labeling system apply? See why I said there is MAJOR confusion over your labeling system. It simply doesnt make sense.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Not sure why you question the validity of compressor maps. We just said that Garrett had not made them available on the T-technology product. That's their decision, not ours.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I posted compressor maps below. They say they are for a T04e wheel. Am I confused? I know they are off Turbonetic's website, but last I checked turbonetics simply built Garrett turbos with different housings, much unlike yourself. If this information is invalid, I would really like to know as I'm basing a lot of my opinions on this data.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Like I said, give me a call sometine and we'll try to help clear some things up for you.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I wouldn't want to waste your time as I'm not really a consumer but more of a nuisance. As this thread started off, it was in the FI tech section so I felt no real issues starting a technical discussion. This way you guys can answer on your own time and I wont stop you from doing your job(atleast I hope I'm not).

 

rod, i pm'd you with some questions.

 

I'm still trying to figure out how a T04E 57-trim wheel, at 75mm exducer/56mm inducer is a 34mm wheel?

Please explain...maybe the math is too great for my simple mind.


Modified by 99_GS-T at 2:49 PM 10/5/2005